What about the “traditionalists” (and who condemns them in bulk)

Father Antonio


My dissent against the father Ariel just about externals, while of course I agree with the complaint of ideological fanaticism and commingling policies found in traditionalist. In which area we are, But, even legitimate opinions and legitimate stances, and I can not deny my strategy theological, that is to judge only the doctrine

Author Antonio Livi

Antonio Love

guard killed

the brutal murder of unarmed security guard already on the ground during the attack of terrorists to the editorial department Charlie Hebdo

In my previous article I have already expressed my dissent from the way, in my view unwise, with which my brother Ariel S. Levi Gualdo has treated the subject of blasphemous cartoons of Charlie Hebdo. [see who]. Now, perhaps abusing his patience, I go back to disassociate myself from certain aspects of his way of arguing with Italians members of militant traditionalism; they, indeed, It is not limited to legitimate and indeed necessary criticism of certain ideas but switches to heavy personal references, making the names of some publicists (book authors and editors of newspapers) and even some serious scholars. Everything in the article entitled "We are the change of an era, the Holy Father Francis is necessary to suspend judgment and proceed on the wings of faith” [see who].

Even before these recent events I had published who, on 'Patmos Island, an editorial in island logowhich - on behalf of all three editors of the magazine - precisavo one that I thought would be our doctrinal policy, and consequently our editorial line: "Why can not we tell us traditionalists but even progressives" [see who]. The essence of the speech that I made it this: when it comes to matters of faith of the Church and its correct interpretation, We can not dogmatize what is questionable, ie absolutizing what is relative, because in the end is to be put in perspective just what is absolute, that is, the truth of the dogma. As a result, The Island of Patmos should have, in my opinion, on every occasion to reaffirm the truth of the dogma and discern, among many theological opinions that are proposed, those that constitute a legitimate interpretation / application of the dogma from those that are incompatible with the dogma itself. Doing so could avoid taking positions theologically confused, such as to jeopardize the function of orientation to the truth of the dogma The Island of Patmos must have. For "theologically confused positions" I mean those that emphasize beyond measure any legitimate opinion on the Catholic doctrine, eventually take the epistemic quality (negative) of ideology.

livi CR

Interview with Antonio Livi ed Correspondence Romana. Click on the image to open the video

the, calling Fondazione la mia "Apostolic Union for scientific defense of Catholic truth”, I meant precisely that it was promoting a proper scientific, ie founded on secure principles and guided by an appropriate method. Ideology is exactly the opposite of this way of interpreting the dogma, because it confuses dogma uncritically with questionable, the limited and relative human science with the absoluteness and finality of divine revelation, as it is formalized in dogma, St. Thomas considered a participation 'Knowledge of God and the saints». What forms of ideology, I mean? At these ideological positions that today in the theological debate are contrasted provocatively and I mentioned in the article title: traditionalism and progressivism.

We dell 'Isola we would had to look from appearing supporters of one of these opposing invention ideologyideology, and explain to all our theological reasons for this distancing. But not passing through the criticism of certain ideas "extremist" denigration of individuals. Because individuals with an idea you never indentificano, let alone with the ideas of a political group, a current of thought. And every person has a dignity that should not be unfairly convolta in the criticism of ideas, His area or cultural environment. Nor should they be criticized, in this doctrinal background, its hypothetical intentions, much less the personal and private facts.

metro goldwyn mayer

Ariel signigica Lion of God. Ariel's father has a characteristic, he recognized: He likes to poke fun alone …

My disagreement with Ariel So far only externals, while of course I agree with the complaint of ideological fanaticism and commingling policies found in traditionalist. In which area we are, But, even legitimate opinions and legitimate stances, and I can not deny my strategy theological, that is to judge only the doctrine (that is something to be known with sufficient certainty on the part of a believer with theological criterion), and not the conduct, especially if private, of people (given that their intentions and the complex events of their lives are never knowable properly and then do not allow anyone to make certain judgments but only more or less legitimate suspicion and speculation more or less well-founded).

Bianchi, many faiths

Enzo Bianchi during a conference

I have been faithful to this theological strategy even when I felt compelled, for the preservation of the faith in the people of God, flatly disapprove doctrines that seemed totally incompatible with the dogma (I did it, as everybody knows, denouncing the incompatibility with faith seen in the speeches of certain public figures, including lay people as Enzo Bianchi and Vito Mancuso, Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, and as Walter Kasper, bishops like monsignor Bruno Forte, etc). In this line, I have also worked to promote the Church mutual respect among all the opinions that are compatible with the dogma, whatever the differences in its doctrinal interpretation or historical application. For this reason I refrain from judging what is not doctrine, but practice (pastoral practice, institutional, apostolic etc.), because the practice of individuals is made up of many prudent choices that the individual has to operate in the face of various concrete circumstances and must be guided, precisely, by virtue of prudence: virtues that I want to play in my own work, but about which I have no way to judge the work of others.

traditionalists 2

Liturgy according to the old order posted

in traditionalist There are opinions and are also recognized legitimate. Let me explain: If the "area" or "current" you can talk, it is because the different actors have in common a certain ideological approach, which consists in considering illegitimate (totally or in part) the teaching of Vatican Council II, because it would have welcomed (totally or in part) instances ideology opposite, that of progressivism or modernism. Hence hermeneutics of Vatican II as a radical "break" with the Tradition, particularly with the decrees of the Council of Trent and Vatican I, with the condemnation of theological modernism by Saint Pius X and the condemnation of "new theology"By Pius XII. From here also the rejection in block of the entire post-conciliar theology and the constant reference to the sole pre-reconcile theology. From there the fact to consider doctrinally and pastorally unacceptable reforms introduced by Vatican II in the Church's life, beginning with the liturgical reform, with the consequent attachment to The old order, considered the only valid way of celebrating the Eucharist. From here finally the systematic critique of the pastoral decisions of the popes of the post-conciliar (Blessed Paul VI, St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI and especially the current pope, Francesco), considered deleterious effects of the conciliar reforms.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre

The most extreme positions, in this sense, are those represented by the followers of Archbishop. Marcel- Francois Lefebvre, some of whom come to speak of "vacant" and "Church apostate". Evidently, these extreme positions are not made their, all together, by all the representatives of the Catholic traditionalism, because among them there are also serious and balanced scholars, whose ideas - taken one by one - can and should be appreciated, although not necessarily shared, as valid and legitimate interpretations of Catholic dogma and history of the Church. It is a question of objectively respectable theological opinions, and I, When the opportunity presents itself, I find it quite right to respect them, and sometimes also to express my appreciation. And to those who work with me I suggest you do the same, ie respect these objectively respectable theological opinions. Respect them - I clarify – not for the impersonal context (socio-cultural) ideology which is their humus, but in the personal context of righteous arguments of those who propose.

de mattei council Vatican II

a valuable historical work of Roberto de Mattei

I do a first example, so to further clarify This my criterion. The historical research of Roberto de Mattei on Vatican II are in themselves - regardless of ideological use that they can do - a record that has a great scientific value. I do not share his interest in pursuing the Council as an "event", because I'm interested in the Council as the Magisterium, regardless of how the conciliar documents have been developed in the committees and voted on in the classroom; but that does not stop me from reading his works without bias and to draw useful indications for the hermeneutic of the Council, that papa Ratzinger leads to recognition in Vatican II a "renewal in continuity of the one subject Church". I not even completely share his strategy of intervention of Catholics in social life in defense of "non-negotiable principles": but I know well that some initiative in civil society must indeed be taken, and my mistrust of the use of certain means (the inevitable mingling with political issues) does not take away my full sharing of ends. This is why not just believe that you find fault in 'Patmos Island without distinguishing between its historiographical considerations (which fall within the limits of legitimate freedom of opinion of Catholics) and its cultural and socio-political (the expediency of which does not touch us of 'Patmos Island to judge).

peter vassallo

Anthology of writings by Piero Vassallo Levied Christian

As another example,. Piero Vassallo Genovese is a cultured intellectual, good knowledge of the history of modern philosophy, and he and I are in agreement there on the validity of the "philosophy of common sense" and the critical idealism of theology; why should I refuse his friendship as manifested, when he is dealing with matters unrelated to theology, sympathies for the political right? In addition to not talk (neither good nor bad) political conviction, I should also point to it to public contempt? And what theological argument I should come up to attack? I should perhaps say that the Catholic morals forbids to have sympathies for the right? But the view that we must necessarily be left to be a good Catholic has no theological foundation: It is the classic view of "fundamentalist" (that can be right-wing Catholics, m also left Catholics: just think of the theorists of "political theology" or "liberation theology").

astray …

The "fundamentalists" are theologically astray, because they ignore the complexity of policy issues and the area of ​​freedom that the Church gives to the faithful in the choice of means to operate the necessary "mediation" between the principles of social ethics and the concrete possibility of promoting the common good in the historical contingency. I do so I must limit myself to theological considerations, reminding everyone that in politics there are no dogmas, and the real dogma, what is the basis of Catholic morality, does not oblige the faithful to any contingent political option. The principles of moral theology (and the Church's social doctrine is a chapter of moral theology, said St. John Paul II) indicate the criteria that the conscience of the faithful must follow, applying them with freedom and personal responsibility to concrete historical circumstances in which it has to operate.

brunero gherardini 2

the eminent theologian of the Roman school Brunero Gherardini

A third example is that of Brunero Gherardini, theologian of the Lateran and exponent of what was once the famous "Roman School", to which progressives wanted to inflict damnation of memory. Traditionalists however exalted Gherardini because he put at the center of theological discussion of the post-conciliar precisely the notion of "Tradition", without, however, fully understand in its complexity epistemica. I think I've fully understood and not convince me at all (He knows this because we hang out amicably for many years and we exchange opinions on many topics), but nonetheless I recommend to everyone the study of his texts, full of good doctrine and deep piety. In one of them his lyrics he concludes his analysis of the doctrinal documents of Vatican II detecting in some cases the ambiguity: ambiguity as to enable progressive false and tendentious interpretations, justifying their "hermeneutic of discontinuity", namely the argument that the Vatican II would mark a radical rupture with Tradition. But what is the consequence that Gherardini draws from his analysis? Do not indiscriminate rejection of the Council's teachings but rather a respectful and heartfelt appeal to the supreme authority of the Magisterium, dad, to make provision in the way that he believes should be made clear in which direction those ambiguous propositions can and should be interpreted in continuity with the previous magisterium. I thought it right and proper to join this public plea to the Pope, although personally I have always thought that the problem of the ambiguity contained in some Council texts should be solved with the hermeneutical criterion of "analogy fidei", ie assuming that the Church of Christ - only subject permanent in the changing historical circumstances – He never intended to contradict, so that in the intentions of the teaching Church every evolution of dogma is always substantially harmony with Tradition (it is a "homogeneous evolution", as Marin Sola said).

And I could give many other examples, but these are enough. And new dell 'Patmos Island indiscriminately we condemn individuals of a certain ideological area, without saving the objectively positive aspects of their theoretical proposals, we do too ideological operation, and so our work of public theological orientation is to be severely limited.


We point out to our readers that the previous article by Antonio Livi was particularly appreciated within the French and has been translated and reproduced in an online magazine which can be viewed by clicking below


3 replies
  1. hector says:

    Mons. Livi, thanks once again for his graceful action. It happens that the young officers in the "second", called to lead a navigation section, They are often eager to show their aptitudes and skills learned; their exuberance, their bravery leads them to go to the limit, on the wave wire, sometimes over, often not knowing or underestimating the threat of the sea. It's up to the wise and sagacious commander overseeing. With meekness of mind and language firmly, She takes the leadership and "reposition" the wheel on the right and safe route in terms of direction and speed: a new lesson in culture and technology necessary to form the future field commanders: always know how to value and respect the man, the nature, the sensitivities, consider the positions, the circumstances, etc for power and always know how to make the best decision – Also through the different experiences and a long series of inevitable errors. Only in this way we grow. Only when we will not have a wise superior who will give us his reproaches, only then we will feel the full weight of our responsibilities!

  2. father ariel
    Manuela Di Crisci says:

    Dear Father Antonio Livi, for many have become the three fathers patmosiani, and she may not know the comfort that you give!! I say “us”, because your articles are often the subject of discussions and exchanges of opinion among the many people who between them if they turn and if you comment on them. It must be recognized that, Father Ariel, It is that among you load the gun and then shoot fireworks that often light per day, a born warrior. She, Father Livi, battle well, but in a different way, But no less decisive, I followed his whole controversy about Enzo Bianchi, and I know that she also gives us hard under. Father John is Cavalcoli, it pure, a temperament warrior, but that's what between the three of you is exactly half way between the Father and his temperament Ariel, as if the Father will synthesize both.
    I found beautiful your three latest articles, where you express, she and Father Ariel, a different way of dealing with the same things, but united in identical underlying substance. Then, between you, there must be a great affection, just read, in certain rows, as the Father Ariel speaks of the other two, of you.
    I think this magazine Patmos will have a great future, thanks to this spirit of unity and purpose among the three of you.
    I am a very small graduate at a higher institute of religious sciences, I teach at a middle school in the morning and catechism in the parish three afternoons a week. Believe me Father Livi: three of you changed my life, in the sense that you push me, despite certain evil teachings had, to see the doctrine differently, and you have brought me to this with your articles and three books your: True and false theology (Livi) Karl Rahner the council betrayed (Horses) and the profound work and sharp And Satan came triune (Levi di Gualdo).
    You are much criticized, by some true or false theologians, maybe you know you too, But you are much appreciated by teachers of religion, catechists, faithful involved, and also several parish priests of my acquaintance, They follow you very carefully and speak of you, and this I feel with the person's hand, because I can say that my pastor, to explain to some parishioners who lost “a pope must not pleased” but you must follow and obey, He used an article Father's Ariel and your two articles, and many of them have lost their doubts clarified.
    Then I offer my appreciation and that of many other people who follow you and to which dates cues of reflection and discussion.
    And the apostle John help you always.

    Manuela Di Crisci (Naples)

  3. Irapuato says:

    Warmly thank Father Livi because fully share its depth being of those who while going to Mass said ordinary, I do not dislike – and indeed the seeking – to go to Mass in the Extraordinary Rite and from which I really received immense benefits for the soul, and even the body…. I also made the catechist with the FSSP (San Pietro) and we had no difficulty in uniting the Catechism of St. Pius X with the “new” by John Paul II, knowing well draw ancient things harmonizing them with the new…. while – Alas – catechesis of parishes continues to be decadent and devoid of doctrine. This year, eg, for Lent will not talk about CONVERSION TO CHRIST but charity for the poor, but it is not what was organized Lent….
    Thank you with all my heart!

Comments are closed.