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The website of this magazine and the editions take name from the Aegean island in which the Blessed Apostle John wrote the Book of the Apocalypse, isola also known as «the place of the last revelation»
«God revealed the secrets of others ALTIUS»
(in higher than the others, John has left the Church, the arcane mysteries of God)
The bezel used as the cover of our home page is a 16th century fresco by Correggio. preserved in the Church of San Giovanni Evangelista in Parma
Creator and editor of this magazine website:
MANUELA LUZZARDI
I read this article a few months late, I still feel like answering, as in that article I am accused of being sectarian, heretic, psychologically ill, ignorant, liar.
1)The article begins with an accusation of heresy at the CNC, accusations usually come at the end , not at the beginning, otherwise it seems that the heresy is taken for granted while instead it is all to be demonstrated.
3)The formation of Christian families within the CNC should be considered an asset, the article sees it as a way to plagiarize the popes, what is the point?
4)The CNC-Albigesi juxtaposition is as arbitrary as the one between nutella and stracchino.
5)In some places it is possible that liturgical abuses have occurred, but this does not disqualify who in the CNC celebrates according to the statutes.
6)If not even the fruits of the CNC convince, then I don't know what can convince you of his goodness; isolated episodes of episcopal protests are mentioned but not the numerous awards.
7)The accusations against Redemptoris Mater and missionary families have a concrete foundation or are gratuitous defamations?
8)If the CNC hates the clergy, why he opens seminars and requires in each team a…
Proof and proof that she did not read, that if he has read he has done so with the eyes of prevention, then he understood what she meant to understand, it is my duty to clarify that you cannot and must not alter and falsify my writing, for one simple reason: first of all I explain from the beginning what heresy is, for example by clarifying that word “heresy” it is not a dirty word or an insult.
However, know that in any text that aims to demonstrate or support precise arguments, the “accuse” are formulated immediately at the beginning.
Indeed, in legal texts, be they civil or canonical courts, at the beginning the article is indicated immediately, the canon or law violated.
One of “laws” that I frequently report is not by chance the one that contains all the provisions that have always been clearly violated by the Neocatechumenals in their liturgies, the Sacramentum.
Since in my text I have explained everything, I limit myself to responding only to your point no. 5 telling her without penalty of easy denial that, liturgical abuses, in the Neocatechumenal Way, they have not happened “sometimes” O “somewhere”, but they are a costume, they are institutionalized and regulated by Kiko Arguello and his associates.
All this is proven and documented, while she remains free to tear her clothes and deny, so as, if you allow me, pathetic indeed, the solar evidence of the facts.
GLS but by chance you are Kiko himself?
The nice list you formulated: “sectarian, heretic, psychologically ill, ignorant, liar” suits Kiko perfectly. I do not think so, instead, that Father Ariel ever made these accusations to individual adherents to the Neocatechumenal Way.
In the unthinkable comparison you have taken as an example, satisfy my curiosity, who is nutella? Who is the stracchino?
To the point 5 you get over yourself. But if in the Kikian communities everything is strictly adhered to the indications of the catechists! I have been 30 years of walking and I have traveled a lot, I assure you; when you saw a Neocatechumenal Eucharist, you've seen them all down to the smallest detail.
But I'll tell you more.
If you talk about celebrations “according to the statutes” you contradict yourself. The Statutes, on the line of Arinze's letter which they recall and never intended to overcome, you have never observed them. You observe the Statutes according to Kiko (that is, how he wanted to interpret them together with Carmen, to say the least, that is, how they both wanted to upset them without the slightest scruple or repentance) so that you DO EVERYTHING THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE CHURCH REQUESTS YOU TO DO USELESSLY FROM A LIFE.
Talk about fruits. The rotten fruits experienced convinced us first of all.
How many testimonials do you want?
The slaughterhouses with vocations and the Redemtoris Mater. The numerous families on mission thrown into disarray. In both cases, an unprecedented ability to hide the gory cases and bury with them the same protagonists of very sad stories that are not numbers but cheated human beings.
The last question softens me for its naivety (?) truly unique.
You wonder and you ask:
8) If the Neocatechumenal Way hates the clergy, why he opens seminaries and requires a priest in each team?
But precisely because the CNC has always considered the clergy the biggest impediment to its expansionist desires with the desire to exercise undisputed dominion, precisely because at a certain point the whole caste of itinerants no longer held up the relationship with the clergy, he slyly thought of just forming it. Cut off the bull's head, once and for all!
On the other hand, Carmen always talked, about the relationship with the Church, of wars and battles with Bishops and Cardinals and Parish priests and the whole Holy Hierarchy ... Thus ended this unbearable torment for Kiko and Carmen.
form it? form it? Or deform it a priori? Without the hassle of having to work so hard, sometimes, to reduce the pre-existing clergy into total slavery? As befits a perfect presbyter truly faithful to Kiko and Carmen.
The only one who can claim to hang out in the communities without causing damage, perbacco!
Pax
The letter is a real and existing document……but please ariel……
By chance she went to school with Don Ariel to call him by name?
We neglect respect for a priest (you've missed that for some time), I see that even simple human good education lacks you…
Now, regardless of (very bad) form of the question…after such an acute discussion on the veracity of this document, I suppose you can adduce evidence to the denial, right?
Oh no, excuse me, I forgot that the Neocatechumenals are perfectly omniscient, they don't know what the burden of proof is. E’ directly the Eternal Father who speaks in them.
By IPG.
Rock of Fire, 3;
via Della Resurrezione.
A:
Pope francesco.
To the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church.
To the Bishops of the Holy Roman Church.
To the Congregations of the Holy Roman Church
To the Priests of the Holy Roman Church
To the Faithful of the Holy Roman Church
This comment is inserted as we cannot remain silent after what has happened to us, for which we try to answer, but we know that we are men, creature, so we leave the growth of the seed entrusted to us to God. In the hope and faith that it is a seed of wheat, and not grass, if it were grass, possibly I apologize in advance and ask not to take into account what I will insert later. Not out of envy, not out of grudge, not out of hate, not for revenge, but in response to what the Lord entrusts to us every day, for which we thank his goodness and his generosity. Thank you sir.
I state that I am not up to the subject that will be dealt with later, but I hope that someone is deeper than me, and more informed, so I submit this thought of mine to this person, and I leave the evaluation of everything to you completely. Mine wants to be only a starting point for…
Knowing that the neocat path is a strong reality in the parishes does not make me happy for the reasons that Fr Ariel explained. I don't judge who follows the movements, but I think the Church today needs strong parishes! E’ the parish is the stronghold from which to start again because a guide will be found there ( the pastor ) capable of giving each lay person tasks and roles suited to their vocation and abilities. Everything must be found in the parish: studio, prayer, devotion, Christian militancy, friendship and maybe even a wife and husband. If the parish priest is weak he must be helped. What is the point of a movement that distracts from one's parish priest and opens the risk of joining a clan of devotees of one's leader with its own rules? It will be a mistake, but a good parish priest literally changes the face of a neighborhood, the ward head of a movement that makes? Often they are sectorial and you can breathe the air of micro churches. For the benefit of whom? of the church? I doubt it. The Church will resist if we disengage from the sofas to help her ... let's start with the parish priest a few meters from home.
don ariel???
apart from the strangled you wrote, the result of a VERY DEEP ignorance…but have you ever thought about getting a job???
you don't have a shit to do???
Write what you want and how you want, offend me as well as you like best, but in doing so he has the balls to sign himself with his name, not with the name of the Supreme Pontiff.
P.S.
An extremely satisfying and also very profitable job and freelance, in due time I left her to become a priest.
Dearest pathetic neocatechumenal,
thank you so much for giving, if still needed, proof of your profound pride and rudeness. Then, able to come here to lecture on vulgarity.
HYPOCRITES.
The discourse of work because it does not have the guts to do it to Kiko Arguello and various itinerant catechists who live in SBAFO of the communities? Evidently St Paul saying : “who does not work, you don't even eat!” he was a poor moron. Then maybe Kiko comes crying poverty to the ads (however, he found the money to buy the land on the Mount of Olives to build the Domus Jerusalem, vero)?
Dear P.F.,
given the humility, I am not surprised by the foul language.
And luckily our Pope, the true one, He had this to say, ” even words kill”… to the face!
However, a priest is no longer totally a man of this world, in part it is already something else. I apologize for using non-theological language, but literary; this is to try to warn her, for if in an auspicious day he succeeds in eradicating that parasitic plant that has crept into his heart (which could suffocate him completely), so far as, so, were to awaken, remember well that, in the true general confession that he will make, a priest does not even meet with a glance, imagine with bad words!
Grace Father Ariel I would like to know your opinion on RNS as well, Catholic charismatic movement and the Magnificat community
Dear Joseph,
they are each a different reality, ma to gradually, of each, we'll talk.
I had never heard of the article of faith (Umana, divine or catholic? Not received) on capacity “superior” of discernment of the Roman Pontiff.
On the basis of the aforementioned neo-dogma, I should reconsider my position on Pope Benedict IX, in the century Teofilatto III of the counts of Tusculum.
Probably in selling the papal dignity to the godfather and turning it back twice he was certainly moved by the Holy Spirit..
Ah, dear Tomista
… not to mention John XII in the century Octavian of the counts of Tusculum (937-964) elected Supreme Pontiff at the age of eighteen.
He continued to live his dissolute life, after ascending to the sacred throne without any kind of doctrinal formation, theological and ecclesiastical. In the official acts of the Synod of St. Peter who finally deposed him in 964, among the less serious things he did and attributed to him we read: «[…] that he made the holy palace a brothel and a brothel» (he transformed the sacred palace of the Lateran into a brothel and brothel)» [cf. Rescript to the bishop of the Roman synod].
The terrible accusations against him, by virtue of which he was finally deposed, they were written in a report later entrusted to history by Liutprando, bishop of Cremona, He died in fame of holiness. His deeds were so ignominious that it is good not to dwell on them.
He died in 27 year old, under unclear circumstances. Mercifully he would die of a stroke, but perhaps he was murdered, as other historical chronicles tell instead, from the husband of one of his mistresses who made him fall out of a window.
But, as Supreme Pontiff, he was undoubtedly enlightened by the "superior" capacity of discernment granted to the Successors of Peter by the Holy Spirit, as our fine Neocatechumenal scholar illustrates. And John XII decided and signed numerous acts that – applying this pneumatological-Kikian logic – I cannot be placed in the slightest discussion, as when he consecrated several bishops in exchange for large sums of money, including a ten-year-old child, elected bishop of Todi.
Etc … etc …
Who ever, in the past, but also in the present, applying the same “ecclesiologia-neocatecumenale”, could question, or even not accept, all the acts of John XII ?
Thanks again, Don Ariel, for the service he does to the truth.
Do not be surprised by the neocat that sound like a broken record, impervious to any subject.
Do you think that in many years on the Observatory none of them have answered direct questions, where a yes or a no was enough. In previous posts I have just asked some questions to Massimiliano before and Giovanni after. Neither of them deigned to answer.
They are not capable of it after being plagiarized by their catechists. Catechists who, as Kiko assures, have “discernment and speak for inspiration”.
I wonder if their discerning inspiration is acquired at the very act of appointment or if their neocatechumenal superpowers also increase in stages.
It would be funny if they hadn't made so many people cry.
Another argument that silences them is that of money. If he asks about the obligation of tithing, of the mysterious use of the funds raised and the secret on the Foundation's budget, the followers are silent and the catechists become furious.
I wonder why…
Thanks again father, and thanks also to the priests who attended.
So am I, like so many who write here, I warmly thank Father Ariel for having, through one of his writings of the highest rigor and intellectual honesty even before the theological one, dogmatic, liturgical, etc, mainly for 2 reasons:
1) To have, through the document, highlighted those that are the foundations of the Christian-Catholic faith, giving a scientific trait through the citation of the multiplicity of magisterial documents to which he, he scrupulously and meticulously abides by, offering, to every reader, the possibility of an immediate comparison on the possibility or not of being in absolute adherence to the aforementioned foundations, for the benefit of all;
2) To have, by reason of the same document, placed further in the light (in a scientific way, with proven and cited evidence) that the CNC is a syncretism of doctrines and a jumble of ideologies that have nothing to do with the two-thousand-year teaching of the Catholic Church.
The continuous intervention, then, of the self-styled John, Nc pure and especially hard of cervix, validates, further, the thesis according to which, the path, as a sect, it cancels any critical sense and possibility of using reason.
I think the “question and answer” between John and Father Ariel is instructive for everyone, because it demonstrates the total impossibility of dialogue with the Neocatechumenals.
The NC structurally lack the capacity for dialogue, because being non-rational they lack the indispensable element for dialogue, which is a shared rational basis. For example sharing logical connectives, the four arithmetic operations, the grammar rules, the principle of non-contradiction.
None of this is shared in this sterile debate, not even minimally, so it's like talking to the wall. Never in my life had I ever talked to friends; with some insane yes, but with mindless people never.
Inside the NC I understood that it is absolutely useless to waste time in dialogue, both in a peaceful dialogue and in a dialectical confrontation. It is a speech between the deaf, a perpetual ignorance of the list, a subterfuge and a continuous mystification.
They are inexcusable.
I would like to thank Don Ariel because with his work he has contributed to making the Neocatechumenal Way more and more clear.. I hope as soon as possible to be able to read an article concerning the movement of the Charismatics as soon as his commitments allow (Charismatic Renewal, Renewal of the Spirit etc etc. ) with the same clarity and depth, movement born from the Protestant Pentecostals in the same period in which Kiko Arguello provided to build his church.
Thanks for everything
Rev. Don Ariel, I take note of the fact that you think that three Popes were wrong to support and approve the Way. Evidently you have more discernment than these four Popes, two of whom are saints.?There are no comments to make,it speaks for itself, but I would like to point out that some Bishops and Priests,pensano la stessa cosa del pope,they consider it a pastoral error of Benedict XVI,some even argue theological,given that the approval of the new Missal of Paul VI in 1969 would have made that of Pius V expire,the second being the reformed version of the first. This is not my thought,but there are some prelates,ache eminente,she thinks so, so she feels more favored by the Holy Spirit in the gift of discernment?I find it strange,since I have been taught that the Pope,in the Church,has more discernment,for the office he holds,than any other baptized,was also a Bishop. I am certainly not a theologian, even if I study theology,at a lower level than his,but such a reasoning arouses much suspicion in me.
You affirm that the approval of the Way would be a non-magisterial administrative act. It seems to me a rather specious legal quibble,which, however, does not change the substance. The Constitution Pastor Bonus ,approved by St. John Paul II,delegated to the Pontifical Council for the Laity ,the right to examine,controlling and approving lay realities, since the Way is a predominantly lay reality,it could only be the aforementioned department that took care of it. To tell the truth, the catechetical directory of the Way has been examined several times,first from the Cong. for the Clergy,the first volumes,in 1977, then later in the nineties,following the controversy of Father Enrico Zoffoli,then in the period 1997-2008 if I'm not mistaken by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. In any case,even accepting what she says,the substance does not change,also because any administrative act was done with the Pope's assent. Indeed, if he really wants to know, the Statute was wanted by G.P.II. So if you think that the approval is something that happened regardless of the Pope,you are wrong.
She keeps putting words in my mouth that I haven't said,I did not say what you are reporting on Vatican II,now it is she who manipulates her Sacramentum it was not written to condemn the errors of the Way,his is a forced interpretation but it is’ a universal document, which does not condemn the Way at all. Since she likes to indulge in theological subtleties,I point out that it has entered into a contradiction,since, previously he stated that he believed the approval of the Way to be wrong,and to be able to do it ,approval is not an infallible magisterial act of the Pope. But then he appeals to education Redeemer's Sacrament,which is not a magisterial act of the Pope,nor infallible,but from the Cong. for Divine Worship. It is neither an apostolic letter, nor an encyclical,nor an apostolic exhortation,therefore reasoning as she does, I might think, but I don't think so, that it is wrong and reject it. He tells me that the provisions they contain are an emanation of the Pope's will?Well why what is the Statute?It was wanted by John Paul II and ratified by Benedict XVI and Pope Francis.
You called my catechists very ignorant,I suppose he was referring to Kiko and Carmen, if he was referring to them,I inform her that Carmen had a degree in chemistry and theology. Kiko has three honoris Causa degrees in theology as well as a degree in fine arts. I'm not that ignorant either.,I also study theology as I told you. Not all of us will be scientists like you,but we are not even as ignorant as she seems to believe. To report her to her ordinary,I don't think about it at all,I don't see why I should do it?I have no time to lose!I just wish you would realize that,with his way of doing,contributes to discommunion. by fueling the murmuring and hostility of less discerning people. It is sure that people want to be convinced by her?He is convinced that his ideas are right?Do you think that the doctrine has ever converted anyone?I believe he would do better to devote himself to more useful activities,instead of criticizing in a sterile way. I am convinced that you love the Church and therefore,please,do not harm her by making useless crusades. St. Paul VI said that more than teachers we need witnesses. So try to testify your faith in Jesus,not to make war.
After inviting her to be a peacemaker,I believe I have nothing else to add. The Way is a gift of the Holy Spirit for the Church,many fruits have sprung from it,an itinerary of faith suited to our times. I agree that it should not be excessively exalted,it is a tool not our goal,nor consider it more than what it is, but it is not even what you describe in a paradoxical and exaggerated way.,I don't know what reality lives on,but the one where I live is very secularized. The churches are deserted,there are few vocations and we are in an almost post-Christian era. The Way is an answer to this situation,it is necessary to bear witness to the Gospel with one's life,with facts,meeting Jesus,experiencing it. This creed is the testimony that so many ask of us,against this or that and entrench yourself in a sterile dogmatism and an end in itself. This attitude makes no sense. I will pray for you. Happy end of Lent and Happy Easter..
I notice that my very simple question about the (thank God) FORMER Bishop Apuron she glosses over.
May it never be that he can even admit the possibility that the prophet Arguello made a mistake in defending a pedophile with the sword. (as well as a scammer), up to wanting it on stage for the 50th anniversary of the journey in Rome.
Cowardice sets you apart..
How to Alessandra,
I'm afraid I understand that we are more or less at these levels:
the Father and the Son may be wrong to proceed to the Holy Spirit, but Kiko Arguello and his family can't be wrong.
We are truly at this level of blind fanaticism.
And I deeply regret it, because in what Mr.. Giovanni in his capacity as “neocatechumenal model”, there is no laughing matter, but unfortunately a lot to cry, also because it is understood how these people were primed and by what kind of dangerous ignoramuses they were deformed in the faith, in thought and in the almost total lack of critical sense.
I who do not even dare, I'm not saying take a sigh that isn't written, but that I do not even dare to open or close my arms unless it is indicated in the red inscriptions on the Roman Missal, I don't take lessons of this kind by a person belonging to a congregation who, in repeated and obstinate disobedience to the Church, made the Eucharistic celebration what it intended and in the way it wanted. Therefore, she who belongs to a congregation that has wreaked havoc on Catholic doctrine and the liturgy, he cannot and never should dare to reply in this way to those who transmit it according to the teachings of the Church and to those who celebrate the Eucharistic Sacrifice as the Church commands, without adding anything, omit and change, I am so much aware that in the celebration of the sacred mysteries I am an instrument, not master and least of all arbitrary subversion.
Reasoning and rambling she is not even able to read the documents, although it has been indicated to her that in the Sacramentum taken as an example, but that she tries to manipulate by mixing it with other documents and discourses, is written:
«This Instruction, drafted, by order of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in agreement with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was approved by the Pontiff himself on 19 March 2004, on the solemnity of St. Joseph, who ordered its publication and immediate compliance by all those responsible ".
Dove, in the ten concise lines of the decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity which approved the Neocatechumenal Directory, it is written that the Supreme Pontiff: «[…] has ordered its publication and immediate compliance by all those responsible " ?
And do not bring up the Holy Spirit and the discernment of the Pontiffs to which to pay obedient obedience. There are decisions, words, papers, exhortations and acts of the Supreme Pontiffs that require devout acceptance and adherence of faith; there are other kinds of their decisions instead, words, papers, exhortations and acts that do not imply on the part of the Catholic faithful neither the devout acceptance nor the adherence of faith. And this obligation to join or non-obligation to join, it is implicit in the very form in which the document is drawn up and in the provisions contained therein.
Therefore, if the Roman Pontiff, speaking as a private doctor or speaking in a totally non-binding form, were to say – for instance – that it would be good to vote for Mrs. Emma Bonino in the next European elections, I will never listen to him and I will never give this Lady a vote. Instead, if he affirms that it is not permissible for a Catholic to promote marriage between same-sex couples, the theory of gender, the uterus for rent, abortion and euthanasia, I must instead give him total obedience, why that “no”, not only is it binding, but it is really tied to the precise foundations of the Catholic faith.
Without having any effect, wasting further time, and in a completely useless way with those who show total closure to any form of reasoning, I repeat:
the ten concise and skimpy administrative lines in which the President of the Pontifical Council for the Laity approves the Neocatechumeal Way, they do not imply neither magisterial nor magisterial acceptance for the Catholic faithful of fide of this movement, they do not oblige bishops to welcome them into their dioceses, they do not oblige parish priests to welcome them to their parishes.
I have wasted more time, I am aware of that, because she was – precisely – deprived of the basic rudiments of reasoning and critical sense, therefore it will continue undeterred to upset anything that was reasonable and real before it.
And, as you say you are really wasting time. Con i neocat you can't get it right, in the sense that you can't get them to think, because they have sadly been brainwashed by their supercatechists.
Have gotten used to it by now 50 years to upset the documents, especially speaking of a council that has never written what they attribute to it, but since very few go to read the documents (and if they read them they must be understood), just let the supercatechist shout “the council said” and it's done!
I neocat they do not respect (and I bitterly experienced it when as a young priest I was studying in Rome at the Lateran in the early 90s) the teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the liturgical books, and if you scold them, the super catechist escapes and tells you that they are councilors and that you are an old Tridentine matusa closed to the Spirit.
John Paul II never shared them in their approach, we understand this from many very clear gestures and hints (clear to all but them), least of all Benedict XVI, attentive as he was to the liturgy. These Popes have only tried to keep them within the Church to try to be able to correct them within the Church and exercise at least a minimum of control over them..
We have all understood that what you rightly refer to as ten concise lines of an approval decree, imply “we did so in hopes of correcting them”, but they don't, they didn't understand it! For them, those ten concise administrative lines, they are equivalent to an act of the most solemn papal magisterium, but above all binding on the bishops, the priests and faithful of the whole universal Church.
And you can put your soul in peace, why these obvious, to the neocat, you will never put them on his head, Why, as you say, totally upset reality, as Mr.. Giovanni.
In my diocese (Brescia), the then bishop Bruno Foresti (1983-1998) he did not open the doors to him, and invited the parish priests not to welcome them into the parishes. In this regard there is also a letter from his to the clergy which unfortunately I cannot attach to this comment because I do not know how to insert it inside..
In the diocese, today, we only have very few parishes where they are present (it seems to me 4 O 5), and in which they are … checked on sight.
All because, precisely, their decree of approval, it does not bind bishops and parish priests to one … adhesion of faith.
But forget to let them know.
A fraternal embrace priestly.
Don Luciano,
the text of his bishop's letter is faithfully reproduced at this link
https://neocatecumenali.blogspot.com/2015/02/un-vescovo-evidenzia-gli-errori-del.html
Kikus fills!
And in fact his brother Giovanni does not let go, continuing his jihad against Father Ariel, guilty of not worshiping the idol Kiko.
Anyone who has had anything to do with the Neocatechumenals will notice their typical rhetorical tactics and tricks:
– groped to make it appear that the interlocutor is against the Pope (very convenient in the case of a holy Pope)
– insinuate that anyone who does not praise the Way must necessarily be a Lefebvrian fanatic (which for them also includes the Summorum Pontificum)
– obsessively pretending not to notice that the Popes really pulled the ears of the kikos
– put words in the interlocutor's mouth that he did not say, and immediately after accusing him of doing exactly that (the wolf at the stream…)
– reinventing history according to Neocatechumenal legends (actually GP2 not “full” that Statute; B16 not “ratified” but he was indeed taken by surprise…)
– meanwhile, gloss over any other uncomfortable subject. For example the Apuron case: Rome has spoken, Because over? Not at all. You will never find a kikos who deprecates a pedophile convicted as such by a Vatican court, if the pedophile is an illustrious member of his own sect.
To answer Giovanni's questions with Kiko's words:
1. Nurturing discommunion through murmuring and hostility, to be a peacemaker:
“We have seen that many people did not continue on their journey because they did not hate their wives”
“Even today, if a family has a son who marries a pagan, they say that he will be like a gentile for you, a tax collector. And you will never talk to him. For you to be a dead person”
2. Belief that the ideas are right:
“God did violence to you and brought you here by the hair, because he has a lot of pity on you…” ” many of you will be hunted and others will come who want this birthright ”
3. Witness and not make war:
“I realize this may be difficult for you because it is really about changing your religion” “move to a completely new religion” “This Eucharist is new, you don't know it. It has not yet been inaugurated ”
To say that Don Ariel brings division and war, go and testify rather than write, when crediting the above claims, it seems to me a contradiction in terms.
Statements reported verbatim by the incorrect mamotree of II…
Touch!
You have fully centered the implicit content of my comment.
The fact is that they make it a question of stamped paper, now that they have the stamp, what was heretical suddenly becomes magically orthodox.
Thanks Fabrizio
I think Giovanni's behavior is emblematic.
Two aspects seem very serious to me: the fact that the Neocatechumenals lack logic (especially the principle of non-contradiction and the principle of identity) and their widespread ignorance and ignorance (the two are related). They don't understand what to say one thing and then the opposite doesn't make sense. They don't know what worship is and why it is done one way or another: one comes with a big voice saying that it is so because Our Lady says it, and they think it is. Or "it was done in the early centuries", but no one would be able to verify if it is true. Same with theology and all.
An example?
The Iberian painter in the 70s delighted his satraps with blasphemies of this magnitude:
«Perhaps God needs the blood of his Son, of his sacrifice, to subside? What kind of God we did? We have come to think that God appeased his anger in the sacrifice of his Son in the manner of the pagan gods. This is why the atheists said: “What kind of God will it be that pours out his wrath against his Son on the Cross?”» (p. 333 of the Directory, Before approval).
Except then contradict himself after decades. In his book "Il Kerigma" he writes in fact:
«Think that they are saints like Abraham, Isaac, Moses, David could not enter Heaven. They had to stay in sheol, because Heaven was closed. Because? Because it's not the same as slapping a kid as punching a policeman, not to tell the head of state, vero? Good, original sin has an infinite weight, an infinite value, because he offended God, and only could we be redeemed by God himself. Christ is God and therefore his redemptive death has an infinite value and was able to open Heaven for all humanity "
You did not realize the U-turn? It would not be intellectually honest to retract and ask forgiveness for widespread grave errors (in this case in the context of soteriology)?
And given that the entire liturgical practice of the Way is based on a heterodox dogmatic, once the law of belief, it wouldn't be logical (given that it is the explanation) change once and for all the the law of prayer?
Be Kiko (as I hope) now he accepts the theology of vicarious satisfaction (which is the dogma of Faith) because he does not show that he has changed his mind, for example by inviting the priests of the Way to celebrate Holy Mass, highlighting its primarily sacrificial aspect, by respecting the liturgical norms?
because he does not show that he has changed his mind, for example by inviting the priests of the Way to celebrate Holy Mass, highlighting its primarily sacrificial aspect, by respecting the liturgical norms?
Perhaps because the liturgy can be didactically much more effective than the words written in a document? So what can one tell: the documents have been changed, I'm fine; meanwhile the liturgy continues to convey the previous contents…
Excuse Don Ariel because you call ignorant people you don't even know? Offending people is a sin and she knows it very well. He knows very well that S. Paul said:"No bad words come out of your mouth anymore". Why this presumption of judging things and people he does not know?Judging and ruling on things that perhaps he did not understand?He is a cultured person?Ok it's fine and I respect it,but he should have the same respect for others. It will also be cultured, I don't doubt it, but it's not infallible? I remind you that St. Paul said that if we do not have charity ,we have nothing. You express your opinion and I respect it,she doesn't like the Way?All right, I accept it, not necessarily everyone should like it,but because he pronounces these rash judgments, even accusing them of "heresy" and "sectarianism" '?
The infallibility of the Papal Magisterium is reserved for a few cases,as you yourself said, therefore, not all of the magisterium invests infallibility. However, it is unthinkable that there is a fallible magisterium, for which the Pope, may be wrong in some of his pronouncements. The word Magisterium and error are in contrast. The Pope's magisterium is twofold,as you know, it can be an infallible ordinary magisterium, if it proposes a definitive teaching. Or it can be an authentic ordinary magisterium and that's it. Thinking that this last type of teaching is fallible is certainly a mistake and I don't want to believe that you think this. The magisterium as such, mainly because it is guaranteed, it cannot contain errors,therefore it is not fallible. The Church in her magisterium does not always commit her charism of infallibility,this is the case with the Way, in fact the Church limits itself to proposing it,as an itinerary of Catholic formation,but it does not impose it,but since the charisma of the keys was given only to Peter and his successors,he has more discernment in the Church,of any other Bishop,therefore if these,,approves Way,as an itinerary of faith,it means it comes from God.
But let me understand, do you think John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Pope Francis were wrong to approve and support the Way? If I understand correctly,she would claim that, since the Way is not dogma, nor does it belong to the infallible and irreformable Magisterium, then it is possible that its approval is incorrect and therefore it can be refused? Says this? These are, more or less, the same theses of those who want to question the validity of Vatican II, claiming that the Holy Spirit would withdraw from the Church and since it is a pastoral council it can be rejected? Well if he says this I really think he is wrong. Even if the approval of the Way ,it does not affect the infallibility of the Pope,it is unthinkable that John Paul II erred because the Pope ,precisely because he is particularly assisted by the Spirit,he has greater discernment than anyone else in the Church. To deny it would mean to question the action of the Holy Spirit and this is not acceptable for a Catholic. You know well that the Spirit assists the Pope even when he does not express himself ex cathedra. If you think otherwise,I absolutely disagree. If that were the case we would be like the Protestants.
Dear John,
First of all, I clarify that "ignorance" or "ignorant" is not an offense. The etymology comes from Latin ignorance, in Greek ἀμάθεια, and in both cases it indicates the lack of knowledge, of basic or in-depth knowledge of a given thing. So it's not an offense, nor a derogatory term, to the point that in both the philosophical and theological lexicon we speak of learned ignorance O holy ignorance, especially to indicate people of good will and intentions, but they lack knowledge, and to whom holiness is by no means precluded, given that the lists of saints are full of sensational ignoramuses in the etymological sense of the term; we even have an illiterate woman proclaimed a doctor of the Church, St. Caterina da Siena. Therefore not uncomfortable, first of all, St. Paul the Apostle out of all proportion in this context.
Perhaps it is not clear to you - never mind - that you have been talking to a dogmatic theologian, dogmatic-sacramental and historical of dogma, A little bad, no problem, it can happen. So I remind you that dogmatics is the most complex branch of theology, which also requires profound historical knowledge, because the dogmas and related disciplines, they fit into very ancient and very complex stories. Hence the real nonsense affirmed over the years by Kiko and Carmen, especially when they filled their mouths with "back to the origins" or "church of the origins", demonstrating with their ramblings that they do not know - and I repeat demonstrating - neither the origins nor the Church of the origins.
In vain I have previously given you the example that you refused to take, when I told her about my personal ignorance: "Without a calculator, I am not even capable of dividing, that's why if I were invited to a mathematicians' convention, I would never dare to open my mouth, I'd put myself in a corner, I would listen and for sure I would not understand anything, because I'm ignorant ".
I was very clear, for example by pointing to one of my many ignorances, which is certainly not the only one. But she shows that she grew up in the best of the worst of the Neocatechumenal Way on bread, pride and elective Holy Spirit, he has been deaf to any kind of reasonable reminder, continuing to post comments that are neither in heaven nor on earth, how anyone can ascertain by reading them and how the latter in which he tells me:
"But let me understand, do you think John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Pope Francis were wrong to approve and support the Way? If I understand correctly,she would claim that, since the Way is not dogma, nor does it belong to the infallible and irreformable Magisterium, then it is possible that its approval is incorrect and therefore it can be refused? Says this? These are, more or less, the same theses of those who want to question the validity of Vatican II, claiming that the Holy Spirit would withdraw from the Church and since it is a pastoral council it can be rejected?»
This statement of his is a genuine delusion that insults not me, but any Catholic intelligence. All for various reasons, from the first: for the way he expresses himself and the confused way in which he expresses himself, it is soon deductible that she, moreover with a student of the subject, quotes the Second Vatican Council as if it were one slogan, but unfortunately it would never be able, in front of an audience of listeners, to analyze and illustrate only one of its documents. And this I do not say and I do not affirm it, but you prove it yourself, with what he writes and how he writes it.
Then she comes to accuse her interlocutor between the lines, priest and theologian, that those who question the validity of the Neocatechumenal Way are like those who want to question the validity of the Second Vatican Council. A statement that is not simply unspeakable, but truly aberrant [from Latin wander off, that is, to err].
So I reply by telling you without problem that yes, I believe that John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis I were wrong to approve the Way and that this choice of theirs is in no way binding nor is it a matter and object of faith. Just like many of their predecessors, they were wrong to make so many other decisions, both pastoral and political, which did not imply any kind of obligation on the part of the faithful to adhere to them in faith and sharing.
You have given a repeated and obstinate essay of what is the perfect emotional Neocatechumenal, irrational and devoid of logical sense.
You can shout all the pontifical approvals you want from morning to evening, but the fact remains that you have never been approved with a own motion Popes extended to the whole Catholic Church, but with a decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, through an act of purely nature administrative, do not magisterial and least of all doctrinal.
I repeat and then I point out again that the much heralded approval of 2012 [see text WHO], it is a purely administrative act of ten narrow and narrow lines, in which the Roman Pontiff is neither directly nor indirectly appointed, as it happens instead in many other decrees of the Dicasteries or Pontifical secretariats of the Holy See, in which the formula is used instead: "The Supreme Pontiff has requested its approval", or "the Supreme Pontiff has seen and approved". Therefore, whether you like it or not – but these are the real facts and cannot be denied – a 43 years after the foundation of the Neocatechumenal Way, you finally received ten lines signed by the President of the Pontifical Secretariat for the Laity and without any reference, not even indirect, to the Supreme Pontiff. Maybe he wants to deny it?
And she compares to me the non-acceptance of ten administrative lines written by a Cardinal to what is the adhesion of faith due to an ecumenical council !?!
If you take an instruction from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments instead, in which, among other things, all the liturgical abuses that the Neocatechumenals have stubbornly carried out for decades are condemned, namely the The Sacrament of Redemption, he will be able to ascertain that this document is also signed by a Cardinal – yours “friend” Francis Arinze and by the Archbishop Secretary Domenico Sorrentino – but at the end of it you will find these words written there:
«This Instruction, drafted, by order of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II, by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in agreement with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was approved by the Pontiff himself on 19 March 2004, on the solemnity of St. Joseph, who ordered its publication and immediate compliance by all those responsible ".
All these elementary things, to her, they are not quite clear?
Yet I searched, wasting not a little time, to explain them to him in every way. So I repeat them: Until a Roman Pontiff declares this approval of yours binding for all the faithful of the Catholic Church who must therefore accept it with the adherence of faith required by an act of magisterium, I remain free to say what I say, including the fact that in my opinion, these Supreme Pontiffs, they were wrong to recognize that den of ignorant people, presumptuous and heretics than she, obstinately, unfortunately it is representing in a truly admirable way.
And if you think you have reasons against me, please contact my Diocesan Ordinary and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but don't write us more about such nonsense, because patience has run out and we will no longer publish rants of this kind, but for the respect we must have for our time and for the good use of which we will have to give serious account to God.
Believe me, the worst bitterness of a shepherd in the care of souls, but just the worst ever, is to waste time, like I did, with subjects who, like her, call themselves Catholics, but who refuse to understand, they do not want to understand and they distort in a polemical way everything that is doctrinally reasonable you tell them.
And in front of these people, be clear, neither the Church nor priests like me have failed, have sensationally failed Kiko and Carmen giving life, to the test, to a monster, hence to sectarians who refuse to understand, who do not want to understand and who distort in a polemical way everything that is doctrinally reasonable you tell them.
May the Lord bless you and assist you in the journey towards the true baptismal faith.
Ariel Caro,
while you were answering Mr.. Giovanni, you could have taken that time to write who knows what interesting article. Satisfactory for you, at the theological and pastoral level, and useful for us, that we always read so gladly, and that we take many ideas, such as myself for my homilies.
In these long and repeated responses, with whom in fact denies and rejects any reasoning, and that throws everything into controversy / response and ends in themselves, your priestly heart is truly perceived.
You could have just trashed everything and wasted no time, but obviously you really believe, and all the way, to the importance of bringing the sheep back on the right path to the fold.
If from all this Mr.. Giovanni has not learned anything, a me, as a priest, you learned a lot, and remembered a lot, of what our mission is.
Albert,
you are right and I agree with everything you wrote, on the other hand we know the confrere in question and we know (knowing him) at what levels is he loving just when he seeks, for instance, to be strict, where it is necessary to be.
To you and to those who read us I say this briefly, to clarify, and I say this to the laity instead to clarify what is sometimes our very difficult situation as parish priests …
Now imagine a priest of 33 years sent to a parish where from 20 the Neocatechumenals had settled, where the Neocatechumenal groups present were in total 7.
there, imagine yourself a priest of 33 years that must communicate, clash and take insults not from a Mr.. Giovanni, but yes 30/40 Themselves. Giovanni!
When he couldn't take it anymore, he came to the parish with me, In the 2013, he was years old 35, and it took him two years to recover physically and psychologically. And you want to know, with every attempt he made to put them in order, what the 30/40 vari Sig. Giovanni? This: “the Church approved us! The Pope approved us!”. Therefore: if you don't do as we say, you are not with the Pope and you are not in the Church.
But to us priests, who thinks about it more, for several decades now, who thinks about it more?
Hello Confreres,
I offer a short contribution.
I don't know Father Ariel except for his writings, however I have known in the past, visiting my family in Cagliari, another of the Fathers of the Island of Patmos, father Ivano, when he was at the Capuchin convent, now he is chaplain in the hospital of this city, great man, friar and priest.
I believe that Mr.. Giovanni, in what is the scale of neocat be a very quiet person, think, I when I was pastor of the first parish entrusted to me 15 Years ago, I risked being beaten by these great dear people, only for having dared to say that at the Easter Vigil I didn't want the preconio schitarrato on the music of Kiko, and it is not a way of saying, I really risked being beaten seriously.
Eh, dear Don Angelo, say well … “who thinks of us priests”?
Greetings from Sassari
Don Giovanni
Are we joking !?
An administrative decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity placed on the usual level of acceptance of fide of an ecumenical council?
And if we try to talk about the obvious with these guys, absolutely obvious, they also scold us in this way, as if they were the teachers and we were the schoolchildren?
So if the Pontifical Council for Culture publishes a text in which it highlights modern sacred architecture, what does it mean? That I, pastor of a 16th century church, I have to tear it down and rebuild it on other criteria?
As Father Ariel says sacrosanctly: are ten lines of an administrative decree granted after almost half a century and with the further hope of putting them in line, only and nothing more than a decree of a pontifical council signed by the cardinal president. A decree that does not oblige any bishop, no priest and no faithful either to share them or to accept them.
With this it is easy to say in what terrible situations we parish priests found ourselves when after the 2012 the NCs presented us in the parishes slamming these ten lines in our face and telling us (as Don Angelo said above) that the Church had approved them, the Popes had approved them, so we were obliged. But be obliged to what, perhaps to put the parishes in his hands, to have him set up restaurant tables inside churches, to turn away from the consecrated altar, and make them do what they wanted?
With me the approval speech was also made by a NC deacon whom I reproached by telling him not to dare to stand upright at the altar in front of the assembly during the Eucharistic Prayer while I genuflected twice. Here is the rigmarole “the Church has approved us, the Popes approved us ". I told him "let me see where the Church and the Popes approve that the deacon stands during the Eucharistic Prayer in front of everyone while the presbyter kneels twice". And I said “you, in my parish, you are not welcome, and you don't have to go back to serving ".
He went to protest to the bishop, saying to him too … “The Church has approved us, the Popes approved us ". The bishop answered him: “If the parish priest doesn't like you, it will have its pastoral motives, if then the reason is what you told me, know that I agree with the parish priest, why me, that I am the bishop, I always kneel ".
In short, it is useless ... we do not think about it, you don't think about it ...
Someone, for example, explains, as never before in Nc Mass we will never kneel during the Consecration and that always recite the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed never-Constantinople?
On this second venture an answer my question: It has to do with the fact that it was composed and promulgated during the reign of the infamous Constantine?
And if not why, because I never recite the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed?
Because this (and others) Unlike the Mass of Paul VI?
The John speeches I have heard them hundreds of times. E’ useless to hope in a slightest awareness also of simple absurdity of certain of its arguments.
Rather I would ask him if he has any thoughts on DEFINITIVE condemnation of the Neocatechumenal bishop of GUAM, Apuron, for pedophilia.
Guam has for decades been a place where the path he did what he wanted. In which esautoravano priests who were not part and forced – I stress forced -, the seminarians to be part of it.
The same Kiko Arguello has publicly defended talking about “persecution” e, proof of this, the same bishop (convicted at first instance) He was present on stage for the fifty years of the journey to Rome.
Apuron was publicly defended in every way, licit and illicit, from the way in the person of its high places: Gennarini (responsible for the United States) and Kiko Arguello same.
Dear John, I want to refute?
What do you think?
About Mons.Annibale Bugnini ,to inform you that I personally knew one of his secretaries who worked for him in the years of the liturgical reform. I also know one of his students. She repeats the usual clichés of Bugnini detractors,the fact is that on the internet on sites pseudo traditionalists circulating some news but I have some news, a person who knew him personally, and attended to the facts ,perhaps not even when she was born or was little more than infants. The person I met told me that Pope Paul VI was in tears when he had to dismiss Bugnini and they had to pacify the environment of the Curia. The prosecution then to belong to Freemasonry is a hoax invented by some cardinal of the Curia,which even I know the name,but say nothing of Christian charity and also because .is passed away,peace to sua.Le charges against Bugnini are false because it is attributed to the faults of the liturgical reform,which was commissioned by Pope Paul VI.Padre Bugnini was only an executor.
The accusation of belonging to Freemasonry is based on the Mino Pecorelli newspaper called OP? We know very well how ambiguous was the journalist and hung around in troubled waters. It not by chance was murdered mercilessly. A character is connected to the secret services diverted. I remind you that the grand master of the Masons then, Lino Salvini ,the 10 August then declared the newspaper Panorama:"Cardinals in the lodge we do not have. In this list (of the 114 prelates published on Panorama,)I know of only four people, and it does not mean that they are Masons. Besides the masonry files there is nothing that resembles the sequence of registration date, badge number, monogram, that appears in the list '. And the head of the French Freemasonry Richard Dupuy pointed to the TV not without a touch of contempt: 'After the abbot Baruel and Leo Taxil Bishop. Lefebvre took over the old rancid themes of Freemasonry ' ".
Therefore BUAN code name and the initials attached that read on OP are falsehoods. What Pope Paul VI had believed,It proves nothing.
Therefore BUAN code name and the initials attached that read on OP are falsità.Che Pope Paul VI had believed,It proves nothing.
In my response / question I have not referred to these urban legends, Masonry from the plots and the plots various, because I always tried to be a serious scholar.
Therefore, the history of the Church, dogmatic sacramental, the liturgy and the movement of the liturgical reform that comes to life at the end of the nineteenth, I have not studied them on the Internet, but in many other ways and on many other sources.
Based on a fact, I just wondered why the Holy Pope Paul VI sent Hannibal Bugnini in Persia, today Iran, why he would not receive him, and would never see him again. In all urban legends from her tumbler and she widely known because as she says circulating for years on the Internet, I have not even had the vaguest allusion, precisely because they are well other sources to which I draw.
I agree with you that:
"What Pope Paul VI had believed, nothing proves ".
Although I doubt that a fine mind like that of Paul VI, and great connoisseur of the Roman Curia in which he spent most of his life before he was appointed by Pope Pius XII Archbishop of Milan, he believed in such things. But even if he believed there, what is irrelevant.
Instead, if St. John Paul II to experiment, Benedict XVI definitively and precise conditions, approve the Directory of the Neocatechumenal, This perhaps proves conclusively that the Way is absolutely the Holy Spirit and that all the faithful are to accept this as an element of faith, in that “established” two by the Pontiffs their congratulations at the beginning of a speech but to which they immediately followed twenty different reminders to get in line and to comply with bishops, pastors, parish communities, individual freedom to leave the Way, compliance of mission areas populations, the liturgical books, etc …?
Again, I believe we can and that we should apply the following principle: John Paul II and Benedict XVI have possibly believed the tall tales of Kiko and Carmen, this does not prove anything, but above all it does not bind to an adherence of faith towards the other Catholics Way.
If she does not publish I mean it is unable to get on ,the rest I'm not his schoolboy,nor am I obliged to answer his domande.Pensavo you could discuss calmly ,But if she does not intend to continue, You tell me openly ritirerò.Penso of them responded abundantly,Then if you are looking specious arguments and specious say it would be useless to continue. I would just ask if you just accept the extraordinary Magisterium, infallible , definitional and the Ordinary Magisterium of the Pope and definitive?Dismisses then everything else ?Do not accept the ordinary and authentic Magisterium?For if she is among those who reject Vatican II?I hope not poprio!The approval of the Way is not a dogma ,but the Pope,who is the Vicar of Christ,welcomes and encourages this journey of faith,which it means that the positive believes. Believing that the Camino is a heretic sect or,It is equivalent to think that the Successor of Peter wrong to encourage him and what,somehow,tantamount to question the authority of many bishops refuse Papa.Del rest Summorum Pontificum and not take kindly groups Tridentine Mass?I do know some.
… scusi, never his – evidently ignorant catechists – They never given a proper definition of the magisterium?
MDL, What it is the teaching and what teaching?
She is demonstrating, scrambling as a person who has an idea to say the least confusing to Catholic doctrine and ecclesiology, He did not know precisely the rudiments of the doctrine of the faith.
And remember that the Roman Pontiff, Vicar of Christ, even when it is repeatedly said there, orally and in writing:
1. to abide scrupulously liturgical books ;
2. not to omit and add nothing to the Roman Missal;
3. not exclusively use the Second Eucharistic Prayer, but also all other, understood and including the Roman Canon.
Even if that was the Vicar of Christ, but at any time can be tested without penalty denial that these provisions given and repeated by the Vicar of Christ, you do not force yourself, evidently because you have another vicar: Kiko Arguello.
These are the proven facts, his are rather talk.
Dear Don Ariel patiently I read his esposizione.La appreciate but wonder:What to do with our discussion?We are not discussing the dogmas of the Church,nor we said that the approval of the Statute is a definitive truth of faith or is definitional etc.Le I ever made similar statements?I don't think so,I do not understand then his speech vaguely resembling the character of Don Quixote,who built, fancifully , nonexistent castles to lash contro.Non was never told that the Way is a dogma ,But the problem is that between dogma and not be “sect” O “heretic” there is a clear differenza.Il Way will not be a dogma,who ever said it,but it certainly is not a sect or a receptacle of heretics,as she instead mistakenly sostiene.Del rest say that the Way is heretical sect or the same as saying that the catechism of children's sectarian and heretical because it takes place in the children's classes and separatamente.Perchè perhaps you do not understand that the Way is neither an association nor a movement,but a post-baptismal Catholic Initiation for Adults.
You are ridiculous
Dear Father Ariel,
in my simple experience “Catholic parishioner” I have often touched upon various movements but keeping me away, mainly because of experiences heard or statements of belonging that left confused and upset me and did not seem at all Orthodox.
By reading his paper I can only thank you for having explained with competence and knowledge of the facts, about the Neocatechumenal, what I can only guess.
Currently several acquaintances, always in vain, I invite you to approach this or that movement, I absolutely refuse to put all these experiences on the same plane (charismatics, renovation, focolarini …), I did not intend it, but I am convinced from experience, that some situations represent a serious danger for the soul of us faithful.
E’ possible to obtain light of these movements? Where can you find balanced information to avoid falling into dangerous pitfalls, in a period of serious confusion like this, where the thirst for salvation and ignorance lead us to get close to the flames as moths?
Thank you in advance for your attention and for his work.
How Dafne,
I believe it is necessary to admit that the basis of “issue movements” there was an excess of enthusiasm that has misled John Paul II, why then, historically and ecclesially, who really ferried and had to manage all the phenomena of the real post-council it was he. The Holy Pope Paul VI began to have to deal with the serious problem between the 1966 and the 1978, but the bulk of all, the theological consequences to those socio-political get in ed Extras ecclesial, I fell on the Holy Father John Paul II.
The John Paul II was this error: faced with an unprecedented crisis of religious life for men and women, with historical religious orders and congregations that between 1966 and the 1976 They had suffered heavy losses numerical; before these orders and congregations of the statistics 1986 resulted, some of them, in two decades, more than halved the number of men and women religious, he believed – like many other – that the future of the Church was in the movements.
Today I know and I talk frequently with bishops ultra octogenarians, players who were excited to do so in those years, who do nothing but repeat myself as a sort of MEA culpa: "What errors of assessment, at the time, We made all of us together with John Paul II !».
I state: what I think is totally irrelevant and therefore should be taken only as a free and private staff thought expressed in public. Having said that I can tell you that I believe that these movements, everyone, We have already completed its cycle, not to say that in many respects they failed.
Empirical evidence shows, Movements have not favored the Church's unity but division lasua, They have not favored the unified identity of the ecclesial body but have created within the Church of personalities sometimes even exasperated and exasperating.
Characteristic of all these movements is the inevitable conviction of having received gifts and very special gifts from the Holy Spirit, often forgetting that the charisms are authentic and valid if recognized by the Church, approved by the Church, regulated by the Church and exercised in the manner commanded by the Church. Even though instead, to the test, many of these movements have taken the approval of the Church, But unless done and continue to do what they want and how they want.
These Movements, do all, They have started to incorporate its elements and details in the sacred liturgy, often creating misunderstandings of this kind: “I'm going to the Neocatechumenal Mass … I go to the Charismatic Mass … I go to Mass Focolare …”
And here go to making people understand that the Mass is not that or that other Movement!
Other error occurred under Pope St. John Paul II: have allowed several of these movements, for lack of priests in certain regions of the world, to open and operate their own seminaries for the formation of diocesan priests, which in fact they are then results, more than priests of the bishop, Movement of the Priests of formats for the Movement and the Movement service. Is this, sincerely, John Paul II never should have that, and today they are reaping the consequences, often unfortunately also very unhappy.
This season that began since the early seventies, all they believed to rediscover suddenly the Holy Spirit, that the early Church, however, was down two millennia before; although many have believed and thought that it had finally come down only at the beginning of the Sixties. And in the name of the Holy Spirit, we have actually witnessed one of the largest intra-ecclesial confusion that we had never had.
What to do?
You choose a parish which takes place at least a decent living, and in which a priest, the bishop follows the portion of the People of God entrusted to it, carrying out their ministry to the bishop and the diocese of service believers of Christ.
And if anything,, say a prayer from time to time to the movements at sunset. If anything, even a prayer for those who have nothing better to do than to open the process of beatification of certain founders of lay movements, if anything, even as the Carabinieri and the Guardia di Finanza arrested for serious crimes of fraud, peculation, misappropriation, falsification of official acts, etc. … several of the members of that movement, which they had entered from the first hour and in which they had been trained by the founder of the Movement in person, almost as if a tree does not recognize the fruits that …
… but why do not they appoint cardinal secretary of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, maybe we solve some problems.
No, forget it: the problems would instead increased dramatically.
And then I do not think of becoming a red dress, I prefer to wear black for a lifetime.
Although well whores on duty to dress in red, however with a difference: at least they have the professional series and you always assume all the responsibilities arising from their work.
The vulgarity of the priest Ariel, sooner or later it always pops out,
To this, we, on the Way we are not used to it.
And this qualifies it!
Dear Leonardo,
I believe there are limits to everything, even to hypocrisy.
This exchange of words between a Neapolitan brother of mine and me, to dilute the air, it has nothing vulgar.
Unless you want to censor the 90% of the films of Alberto Sordi, screened for years and years in parish cinemas.
In private, Saint John Paul II, to foreign prelates who took up service in Rome, he used to say «If you want to understand Romanism, You must see The Marchese del Grillo».
If you want, instead, I will inform you properly: ran exactly the year 1985 when in Rome there was a meeting between the leaders and founders of the various Movements, including Kiko and Carmen. Among those present also that very delicate and lovable Lady of Chiara Lubic and that undoubted holy man of Father Luigi Giussani.
And it was precisely the founder of Communion and Liberation who, after having repeatedly seen Chiara Lubic turn pale, recalled the diva Carmen Hernandez to a more appropriate language, because in public, completely oblivious to the presence of men and women, of priests and a bishop, becoming animated in the speech he began to say "fuck.", dick!Every four or five words.
I was not present, however there were four priests present who today are respectively: two archbishops emeritus, one of them cardinal, a diocesan bishop still in office, and another priest who is currently archbishop secretary of a department of the Holy See.
And everyone is healthy, vegetate and ready if necessary to confirm what I have just said as eyewitnesses.
Therefore, in response to his genuine excess of modesty, I can assure you that, if at the stroke of five years from death, you will find a diocesan bishop willing to open the first phase of the diocesan process for the beatification of the diva Carmen, very reasonably, with due evidence and testimony, we would propose it as the "Blessed fucking!».
To his scandal for the vulgarity of others – moreover, where vulgarity does not exist – add the fact that in Italy alone there is an army of priests who turn pale to mention the word Neocatechumenals, because by the Neocatechumenals they were attacked and offended in public with really bad words.
To Father Cyrus, who made this joke to which I replied with another joke, a Neocatechumenal catechist interrupted him while he was giving the homily in his own parish during the Holy Mass, Years ago, by saying aloud to the brothers and sisters of the Way «go out with me and don't listen to this bullshit!».
Let us therefore resume the discussion from the beginning: who would it be, the vulgar?
… then let's face it: we were in 2002 and that Sunday of Pentecost I gave a homily on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Without reference to anyone, much less ai neocat.
A catechist, which he had previously rambled in various catecheses on the Holy Spirit (but I did not know this and could not know), he felt, like, “criticized” before his catechists, and to be precise it began like this (the dozens of people who were present always remember him) :
"Stop it, fool!». And turning to his he said: “Let's go away because you don't have to hear this bullshit, why this, in ten minutes, it ruins what I have done with you in months of catechesis ".
People were stunned.
I am a so-called poor doctor in canon law and I can say that both for canon law and for Italian criminal law, in this way interrupt an action of worship recognized by the state that takes place within a recognized place of worship, it is a criminally punishable offense, yesterday as today, because the criminal law code has always remained the same, and the code of canon law, pure.
@Leonardo
“To this, we, on the Way we are not used to it!”
I don't know if you are more a liar or a hypocrite. It is enough to read the mamotreti to see the countless amount of profanity present.
Plus I have never heard calls FROM NOBODY “asshole” a priest…except from members of the path.
In this you are perfectly recognizable.
The worst bigots than you are saints.
Don Ariel gave an answer of his own, albeit with great humility, not wanting to raise it to more than a personal opinion. the, from a simple faithful, I find myself there and I bless God for inspiring my family not to join any fraternity, despite the insistence of the then parish priest (for charity, holy man in many respects). Because if there were responsibilities at the top, it must be said that there was (and it still is) a kind of obsession on the part of the priests ad “thread” people in this or that movement; suspicion of a particular form of clericalism, in order to then be able to maintain a form of indirect control.
To Daphne I would just like to add, having had to do a few “removals” parochial, three initial criteria for testing a good priest: a) who is Orthodox b) that you celebrate in a respectful and reverent way c) that he is humble. The first two things are easily verifiable. For the third: if he finds a priest loved by the parishioners, but without exaltation and with a physiological rate of murmuring (what is ugly in itself), these are good signs for me. If he finds a superstar who is exalted by everyone, it means that that priest has built his own sect, and it's…
To John.
Hypocrisy?
She writes:
“these celebrations … They are part of parish ministry and as a result are open to all the faithful”
Fake. Not only do not appear in the timetable Parish, but outsiders are not allowed to enter. Who wants to try to determine if this person.
“in these celebrations will follow the approved liturgical books of the Roman Rite, "With the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See" (use of unleavened bread for communion, move the Rite of Peace, communion under both species, Brief remarks and resonances)”
Fake. Liturgical Books ordering that communicates BEFORE the priest, and AFTER the faithful, everyone just received the bread and without waiting for others, STAYING standing. Instead you take up the bread, Then you sit and wait for others. You have invented the distinction between Communion e consuming of.
“introductions and resonances are granted are not therefore abuse”
Fake. are any, exceptions and not the rule, should be short and not homiletic.
Not to mention the use of plank instead consecrated altar etc..
She did not respond to anything.
Now I ask: because to defend the Way… [Ed. lack of conclusive words that have not come, It is not our cutting]
I wonder if the Neocatechumenal Way to be considered approved if it violates its own Statutes, under which received approval.
In particular, the statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way predict that this route should place itself at the service of the bishops. I wonder then how do you justify the fact that Kiko, to their catechists, report that the bishops did not complacent with the Way invited to Domus Galileae (expensed around) they were “full of demons” and how, After a Eucharist in the Upper Room, of these had come down the “Holy Spirit” e, FIVE!, them had “converted” to the Way. Really, After this conversion, a bishop would have exclaimed “let's get to follow him” ie to follow Kiko.
What logic is that a Way you should ask yourself in obedience to the bishops possessed consider them when they exercise their free judgment power?
Notice that these statements by Kiko, made during a coexistence of travel to P.S.Giorgio, you can listen to the audio.
Here you can read the transcript:
https://neocatecumenali.blogspot…
Quite right father Ariel, Neocatechumenals know nothing, nor simple, nor great leaders.
Since I left the way I started to inform me, to read a lot and talking to some priests do not Neocatechumenal. I realized that he knew nothing and, what I seemed to me to know, He was often distorted. but yet, in those conditions, I made the catechist for more than 25 year old.
These days I have taken over the mamotreto the second ballot, I have the old one, before approval.
With the consciousness of today I found there many statements and questionable concepts but, I am aware of not knowing, I feel the desire that someone competent could explain.
I know that priests are always very busy but wonder, for my benefit and a little’ of all, What if you could at least identify some priest who can come to the aid.
We escaped, especially people like me who has been 35 years on the road and came from “paganism”, Sometimes we feel scattered. We need guidance and language training, We have many questions, but priests often have little time to spend on the individual.
Thank you for any help you can…
Remarks Mons.Juan Ignacio Arrieta Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts
Already President of the Institute of Canon Law Saint Pius X in Venice
The Holy See has approved definitively the legal statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way. With the formal handover of the approval decree by the President of the Pontifical Council for the Laity to the initiators of the Way, Kiko Argüello and Carmen Hernández, and Father Mario Pezzi, it was concluded on the morning of 13 June 2008 the legal process started six years ago when it was experimentally approved the text of the Statutes. A few months earlier, the Council for the Laity had been indicated by the Servant of God John Paul II as the dicastery that had to assume on behalf of the Holy See the approval of the work of these Statutes, while not a question of an association of faithful. With this Act, the Pontifical Council has fulfilled the Papa.I that position the new Statutes substantially follow the wording of those approved six years ago. Thirty-five articles and a transitional provision contained the provisional text of 2002, and the same items have now the norm ...
Even from the record of Mons.Arrieta:"With this act the Pontifical Council has fulfilled the Papa.I that position the new Statutes substantially follow the wording of those approved six years ago. Thirty-five articles and a transitional provision contained the provisional text of 2002, and the same items now owns the final rule. Beyond the news, at all secondary, to which I shall refer below, no fundamental change has been made in this new passage of the Statutes, and almost all articles are exact reproduction of the old ones. These six years served sleep, however, to make greater clarity as to the original formulation of the texts and to improve the norm both from a technical point of view and from that structural
The Neocatechumenal Way is confirmed in the new Statutes as a post-baptismal catechumenate model that shall be given under the direction of the diocesan bishops or, as he called Pope John Paul II in the words transcribed in Art. 1° of the Articles of Association, as an "itinerary of Catholic formation": a training program for the Christian life of the person, Practice primarily catechetical and liturgical, imparted in community and conducted according to specific rhythms and methods. What it contains the Statute of the Way, and what now approves the Holy See, it is not an association of persons, or an "ecclesial movement" of faithful. The Church has given its approval not to what might normally be called a "gathering of people", but to a "Catholic formation method", although the approval of the ecclesiastical authority of the method and content commitments reflexively those who propose or receive such means to respect the rules, without creating any associative link between them, as with all normality among classmates or colleagues college.
Note well that Mons.Arrieta reiterates that the NC is not a movement.
Please read carefully the following passage:"In my view, the greatest consequence of this public personality, applied to the itinerary of formation neocatecumenale, regards the particular ecclesial authority with which, under the direction of the diocesan bishops, s'impartisce so far the Way, and in the particular commitment that, Consequently, It assumes why it is proposed - as resulted before, but now with renewed legal commitment - through people specially selected and specially trained ".
NB Mons.Arrieta speaks of particular ecclesial authority. How far are we from the description given by you,that is, a heretical sect.
Still from Mons.Arrieta annotations:"Only in this way can be interpreted the term" neocatechumens "used in reference to people that" propose "the Way or that" do "the Way. To be fair, although not a typed institutional category as such in the canonical, that to be constructed requires the use of the analogy than other canonical norms - the legal entity, associations, foundations, etc. –, must also be said that this setting, He received six years ago as a novelty, it later served to better understand other realities that are recognized with difficulty in conventional systems associativi.A unlike the text of 2002, Statutes approved now affirm the public juridical personality of the Neocatechumenal Way (art 1 § 3), erection happened to the initiative of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, with Decree 28 October of 2004. The point is of particular importance because it brings us to the real news that, around, It is seen in the new Statutes ".
He noted that the Catholic Church has granted public juridical personality to the Way? Now it is difficult to imagine such a thing,if as you say,we are a sect.
Regarding, at last, liturgical ceremonies, and concretely the Eucharistic celebration, The text of the Statute defined has certainly benefited the progress and adjustments of these years. Here, too, we have come to a clear text, which is divided into four principles laid down by Article. 13 of the Statutes. First, that Neocatechumenals celebrate the Eucharist in small communities, after the first vespers of Sunday. Second, that such a celebration after the first vespers takes place in accordance with the diocesan bishop. Third, that these celebrations - as I said - are part of parish ministry and as a result are open to all the faithful. bedroom, that these celebrations will follow the approved liturgical books of the Roman Rite, "With the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See" (use of unleavened bread for communion, move the Rite of Peace, communion under both species, Brief remarks and resonances)…
Note well the admonitions and resonances are granted are not so abusi.I Neocatechumenals celebrate the Eucharist on Saturday night,Therefore the bishops that do not impede the spiritual good of neocatechumens.
Finally, the last part of the annotations:"Regarding, in fine, Communion, the aforementioned Article. 13 § 3 It is of a particular nettezza: "With regard to the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the neocatechumens receive standing, remaining in their places ".Who will take the commitment to control the variations between the provisional text of the Statutes of 2002 and the definitive one now published, You will see that, in addition to those mentioned in these few pages, there are no significant changes in the document body. Changes, as I said at the beginning, were very few, although significant as we segnalato.E 'certainly good for the Church that the Neocatechumenal Way has come now to the final approval of their Statutes. It remains to us, with the help of the Lord and of Our Lady, make sure that these standards are applied in concrete cases rightness of the Church's pastoral ".
As you can read the Church has approved the Statute which provides for an exception in that it provides for the Roman Missal,Therefore communion can be made remains in place,without making the procession.
I note, therefore, that, beyond the concessions listed,the Roman Missal includes the possibility of communion under both specie.Anzi already Cost.Dog Sacrosanctum Concilium n. 55,reintroduzione.Il included the Roman Missal prescribes the n. 281: "The Holy Communion, in reason of the sign, It assumes fuller form, if it is done under the two species. It appears most obvious sign of the Eucharistic banquet is most clearly expressed the divine will to ratify the new and eternal covenant in the blood of the Lord, and is more intuitive relationship between the Eucharistic banquet and the eschatological banquet in the Father's kingdom "
About the use of unleavened bread, the Roman Missal prescribes:”320. The bread for celebrating the Eucharist must be made only from wheat, packaged recently and unleavened, according to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church.
321. The sign demands that the material for the Eucharistic celebration truly like food. It should, therefore, that the Eucharistic bread, even though it unleavened and packaged in the traditional form, It is done so that the priest at Mass with a congregation is able to break it into parts for distribution to at least some of the faithful. Small hosts are, however all excluded, when the number of communicants, or other pastoral needs require it. The gesture of breaking bread, in which the Eucharist was in apostolic time, It brings out more clearly the force and importance of the sign of 'unity of all in the one bread and the sign of charity, the fact that the one bread is distributed among the brothers.
Communion on the palms posed Cross,in addition to being a very ancient discipline,dating back to Jesus himself and used,as the only way,in the early Church for at least eight to nine centuries,It was reintroduced after Vatican II,with the Education Memorial Domains,demandava that the episcopal conferences to the decision of many countries concederla.In,Italy included,CEI allows this discipline,therefore,which speaks of abuse?Thank you,good night and I'm sorry for the length.
Dear John,
asking God for the grace of the virtue of holy patience, please read, first of all, the answer that I gave it over to Enzo, in which there is a clear, precise and orthodox doctrinal exposition in which I explain what is the dogma and when a defined truth is a truth of faith.
Instead of sending another papyrus like the one that sent, for not responding then only final to the various questions that have been placed, try now, In short – Read the answer to Enzo – to answer these three easy and simple questions:
– She believes that the approval of the statute of a lay movement by the Pontifical Council for the Laity, constitute a truth of faith expressed in a definitive way or definitional ?
– she believes, so, that that approval of the Neocatechumenal Way, imply a pronouncement by the Church's infallible teaching binding on all Catholics to pay total membership as if it were a defined truth of faith ?
– She believes that, those who do not believe the Neocatechumenal Way a Catholic movement marked the doctrinal and liturgical orthodoxy, They are less obedient deference owed by all the faithful to the deposit of the Catholic faith ?
There are three simple questions, which I hope will answer.
If, however, I will send in response to another papyrus which speaks of quite different things diverting elsewhere speech, know in advance that you do not publish, because even the holy patience can oblige in any way to a sterile dialogue between a priest and a theologian who tries in every way to explain, and a deaf man in every way shown not to want to understand.
I repeat: are three very simple questions.
They are simple for those who have read his previous answers and detailed explanations contained in them and those who acted in good faith. For those not in good faith and deny the evidence, are simply not answer questions that. To ignorance and arrogance, the neocat believe they are custodians of absolute truth, and they are always instructed not to talk to those who think like them. Clearly, even if they tried, hardly would be able to find valid arguments, because they are ignorant of theology average, also basilar, and also, Unfortunately, They do not know the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They are also imbued with Neocatechumenal terminology and can not get out of there.
In this regard I wanted to ask: in the Neocatechumenal Way he is said and repeated to exhaustion that death is sin, namely, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and conquered death, conquered sin. And this is constantly repeating in various catechetical, almost obsessively. But it is precisely in this way? That this is the only interpretation? Or even that opened the way to eternal life? Excuse me for the approximation of my question…
Good evening Father Ariel,
regarding the continuing claims of the Neocatechumenal gentlemen about the last Popes have encouraged the Way as a valid path of Christian life, I would not be wrong but it seems to me that in any case the judgment of a pope of an ecclesial reality does not touch those cases in which you exercise the charism of infallibility except that it is a judgment in final form. What the CNC there was.
I am wrong?
Dear Enzo,
a Roman Pontiff can be expressed in the form final is in shape defining, which implies, in one and in the other case, recourse to the infallible teaching, albeit exercised in different degree, just read St. John Paul II To protect the faith].
This text explains the following:
– in the case of truths of paragraph 1, ie teaching defining, the assent is based directly on faith in the Word of God;
– in the case of the 2nd paragraph of truth, ie in the case of teaching not defining O definitive, this is based on faith in the Holy Spirit to the Magisterium and on the Catholic doctrine of the Magisterium " [cf. n. 8].
Those who do not accept a teaching defining They fall into heresy public and shows as well as excommunication automatic, those who do not accept a teaching definitive, fall into error, but not heresy.
What does it all? I'll try to explain very briefly:
– Per defining It means the proclamation of the dogma of the Catholic faith, example: the dogma of the Assumption into heaven of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the last of the Marian dogmas proclaimed by the Servant of God Pius XII in 1950.
– Per definitive instead it means a teaching that is not proposed as a dogma of faith, but which it is, however, expression of the infallible teaching. An example of a final ruling is St. John Paul II in his Apostolic Letter Priestly ordination the 1994 declares: "The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful"
On all other issues or acts of the supreme magisterium, it may happen instead of the Roman Pontiff, or his successor, decides to change the teachings and certain subjects for reasons of expediency, for example pastoral, as well as might disapprove, for various reason or for unexpected reasons, what his predecessor has established. Example: There were Popes who have approved a religious order or congregation, and then there were their successors that, This same order or congregation, the suppressed.
Sincerely – and I mean it with real affection – in the Neocatechumenal here have interjected and with all those with whom I interjected me over time, I encountered widespread ignorance in historical context, ecclesiological, theological and juridical. Ignorance move far from bad faith, but precisely from ignorance, that is, from ignorance, to the point of really fall into the grotesque, changing as the approval of a lay movement by the Pontifical Council for the Laity, in a real dogma of the Catholic faith to put more or less the same level of Christological dogma or the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. If then, as I did for the umpteenth time even in my reply, one tries to explain certain facts them with all the proper theological and juridical science, expressing everything with due pastoral loveliness, we find ourselves before a real rants of people, without getting in the least about how you answered, They really replicate with absurd arguments.
Surely I'm losing precious time that maybe I could make better use instead of going to knock on a clear glass ceiling. And saying this I reiterate that I believe that these people are not to blame, even when they try to refute absurd arguments with those certain subjects and disciplines he knows them and studies them for a lifetime.
They were formed and de-formed in this way. And maybe, many of them, justified by their invincible ignorance, Paradise will long before us. I do not believe that the gates of Paradise are closed to those who, through invincible ignorance, they start showing discuss, discussion questioned, have neither a sense of proportion nor the common sense of the ridiculous.
Like so many others, I am unfortunately forced to use a pseudonym to steal my loved ones to the relentless vengeance neocat (both the ecclesial and civil field, and they do not give up even if they are mobilized law enforcement).
There would not even need to say: Don Ariel did a great job (it is a pleasure to hear an amateur in comparison), and the Lord will reward.
I would just like to clarify some points.
1) The neocatecumenalismo assign new meanings to certain words of the Christian lexicon, for the express purpose of deceiving even the educated.
“We are persecuted because they do evangelism”, they tell you, and actually it means “someone takes the bait our trap”.
Or: “openness to life”, which actually means “irresponsible fatherhood”, sfornar children like rabbits, Sometimes we think the babysitter, then bragging coexistence “I have twenty children including eight in the sky” (counting miscarriages and – implied – those volunteers).
Or again, “a bishop has asked to open a Redemkikos Mater Seminary”, to translate into “we made him an offer he could not refuse”
2) The neocatecumenalismo has its own internal jargon that you should always translate:
"Environmental": homily secular preparatory to the celebration
"Monition": systematic homily layman before a reading of the Mass
"Resonance, do Kerygma, give a testimony ... ": extemporaneous sermons of the laity
"Scrutiny": stripping of consciences with questions that would make even a confessor
"Tour of experience": stripping of the fast version consciences
"Lift": response ritual (the rise) to "vocational call" Kiko the provoker of vocations
"Domestic partnership": meeting in the hotel (unnecessarily far and unnecessarily expensive) to celebrate the kikismo-carmenismo (the so-called "catechists" and their companions are not charged)
etc.
3) The neocatecumenalismo demands to deceive.
Example: "For any admonitions issued before the readings, should be short ' (letter of 1 December 2005), I walk in hand are not "possible" but "omnipresent", and are not "short" but they last forever. Or: "We do the Communion under both kinds" ...
Although they realize the manipulation, however, they insist to want to fool the next ...
Dear Father Ariel,she repeated that I would try to manipulate the speeches of Popes reported,but then he does not say how I would repeat fatto.Le,This page only allows a certain number of characters,otherwise I would have no problem publishing them in their interezza.Ma.come,I have already said,The documents are available on the Way site available to all,Sorry, I did not understand my answer,then I'll explain,When Pope Francis gave his first speech to the Way,said that maybe it was the case that they gave up something to improve comunione.Qualche Bishop played this evil speech thinking that doevvamo renounce the celebrations in small comunità.Ma the Pope did not say what and why the error rectified through Mons.Becciu .Pertamto the Pope's will is that the Communities do the CN as envisaged by the Statuto.E the Statute provides for the Eucharist in the small community and then waking separata.Che no sense elitist exaggeration and separatist,but they have training videos,as well as the Sacrosanctum Concilium provides states that the liturgy also has educational purpose as it is written to 33 of that constitution.
To John.
Why not shows us the meaning of the papal sentence to you revolt “faithfully follow the Liturgical Books without additions or omissions”?
Why do you keep doing what you like, indeed, as it seems to Mr. Arguello?
Because in front of precise questions (see above) you neocat fall silent?
E’ your dumb devil who intervenes, as they say the catechists to get you out all the details of your private life in the polls?
All the Neocatechumenal Way in four rows. Here are two questions that Kiko turns to his catechumen, in the context of a poll (Volume VI of the Catechetical Directory, “Traditio”, before approval):
Kiko: Before the way you were blind? What you did not see?
WITH.: Before the journey I was a bigot, because I was born in the Church and had a terrible morality, a terrible fear of hell. I always had to present the face of good, I never had a sin, the blame was always the other. I have done what I have wanted all my life and basically I have never believed sinner because I was a good person, because I always went to church and did not see me blind. One day I heard the”ad and through what the Lord grabbed me; after listening to all the catechization, after he started walking, the Lord has made it through his Word, through community, I begin To see that I was a pig. The Lord allowed, while I was in community, It has allowed that I might sin because they saw how I was. Inside the community, through the Word, the Lord has put me in front of my sins.
Kiko: All the mud that was in you, the crap that was in you.
WITH.: In quantity! I did not understand, before the journey, because one married would go with another; This did not understand. The Lord has permitted me you committed adultery, when I was already on the way. It made me see that I'm an adulterer, It showed me that I am a selfish, I love money; I showed me that I love no one, neither my wife, nor my children, I love only myself, I've always tried to benefit from others. This made me see the Lord through life!, I put mud on my eyes making me see that I'm blind because I could see that he loved me so, He did not have shit for my sins, I not despised me, He loved me! And I have seen this in the community, because knowing my sins, the Lord came up through the brothers; through my wife came up to me and wished me well. The Lord approached me in concrete persons, and he wished me well. So I have experienced that God loves me as I am, reduced to be an unfortunate.
Take the words of Popes as a pretext to attack the Way, What it is not licit either corretta.Papa Francis in his first audience with the Way,He said things, by detractors interpreted as a tirade of orecchie.Ma Mons. Dirt clarified exactly what he meant:””SUCH WORDS (those of the Pope) DO NOT ALTER ANY STATUTES INDEED LI CONFIRM. With regard to the celebration of EASTER VIGIL AND SUNDAY EUCHARIST,you mention,articles 12 and 13 beds in INTEGRITA'COSTITUISCONO THEM SO THE REGULATORY FRAMEWORK”. The Way of the Statute provides that we celebrate the Eucharist after the first vespers, and communion be done to prejudice posto.Non see what we shall be committing abuses.
I do not understand why she wants to sow discord?
I am deeply moved.
Faced with the praise bugniniano I can not help but bow down and recognize my incompetence and ignorance.
Being praised by Bishop. Bugnini for the liturgy is a badge of honor.
However, who would not want to be praised by the commander Schettino for their heroism?
And who would not be proud to receive the award “Tommaseo” the dal. Antonio Razzi?
But most of those who, among those who cultivate the virtue of perfect chastity, he never yearned (maybe even subconsciously) to hear publicly appreciation by Rocco Siffredi?
Believe me: I do not know what to say.
In my long work, that at this point I'm afraid that you have not read, But at the same launching into comments, she asks me to "try out" what I have shown in my writing, and in this regard she invites me to mention the documents of the Popes.
Well, I tell me what I should "try", I am seen that in my writing I have faithfully reported the official documents of the Holy See that published and distributed this talk of the Popes? But the things that I have to "try"? Maybe I have to prove that just read my script and then read in full certain speeches of St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis I in this paper are all, faithfully and fully reproduced ?
But she realizes that she is asking me to try what is proven in the official texts of the speeches of the Popes?
As for the late Annibale Bugnini, It may explain why, This time late, the 4 January 1976 was raised by the Holy Pontiff Paul VI from all his positions in the Roman Curia and the same was appointed apostolic speak forth in the then Persia, now Iran? He explains to me because after that decision, the Holy Pontiff Paul VI, repeatedly he refused to receive, so how come, as long as he lived, the late and meritorious Annibale Bugnini did not see him again?
Gentile Don Ariel,I do not see what I would have manipulated?She's a very personal interpretation of speech G.P.II,arbitrary and fantasiosa.E’ true that the Pope is addressed to priests,but just before he addressed the catechisti.Il fact that it appealed to priests does not erase all precedente.Il Pope's address stated in that speech:”I wish to stress the importance of the newly approved Statutes for the present and future life of the Neocatechumenal Way that,as I have said a few years ago,is a”itinerary of Catholic formation,valid for our society and for our times”(AAS 82 (1990)1515″.Meanwhile, I again note that he was wrong by calling the NC movement,how can read the Way is he not a movimento.Inotre the Pope speaks of initiation cattolica.Quanto the departments have placed in recent years is rispettato.Nel 2008 under Pope Benedict XVI has approved the statute definitively what has also been reaffirmed by Pope Francis,through Mons.Becciù,when some bishops wanted to prevent the celebration of Saturday evening, and the Easter Vigil.
Dear John,
She actually tried, before handling the texts - see answer above its long - then before my replica, I could not answer on the merits, who has just written these very words:
"Pope Francis in his first audience with the Way,He said things, by detractors interpreted as a tirade of orecchie.Ma Mons. Dirt clarified exactly what he meant […]»
Let me get: Perhaps we are dealing with a Supreme Pontiff, which is the guardian of the faith, supreme teacher and performer, that after speaking and being misunderstood by critics for its reproaches made to the Neocatechumenal Way, illuminatissimo requires the intervention of the equally famously lit S.It is. Mons. Angelo Dirt, time substitute at the Secretariat of State?
Now I understand, how come we are living a great crisis and ecclesial and ecclesiastical decadence!
Dear John, I guarantee that I am the last of the priests of the orb catholica, But this does not mean that by God's grace I have received:
1. a liberal arts education;
2. a philosophical formation;
3. legal training;
4. a theological-dogmatic-sacramentaria training;
5. a historical-dogmatic education ;
6. I continue to study day by day ...
add to this that they know well and in the Roman Curia bottom, for various reasons and reasons that you do not need to explain.
Said this: if I do that without a calculator can not do even the divisions were invited to a conference of mathematicians, I put in a corner to listen in silence, trying to understand something, and at the end I would not understand anything, because they are devoid of mathematical notions.
Taking the example of mathematical character that I just made wonder: because her instead, like me who can not do the divisions, It begins to argue with the mathematical?
Perhaps because the Holy Spirit has given to that effect all the special gifts?
You see, if she would entrust my spiritual direction, rather than that of some mega-lay catechists, It might be helped, first of all to develop and bring out the best that God has certainly given ability and good feelings, she just needs to be helped, from a mature priest, Free to develop reasoning and critical thinking.
Dear Father Ariel,she can prove with documents,that the Popes that I mentioned have recalled the way sternly,rather than encourage him?I look forward to proving these claims. I do not handle anything,I only quoted excerpts of speeches of Popes and other documents,just because this page only allows a certain number of characters ,but the documents I mentioned are public and are available to everyone. I brought a letter of the late Mons.Annibale Bugnini,at the beginning of the seventies as head of Cong.per Worship Divino.E’ note laudatory,This means then that the celebrations of the communities were considered an excellent model resulted from post Vatican liturgical reform II.Probabilmente Paul VI also thought the same.
Dear Don Ariel since the number of characters is limited I can not mention the documents in full,But if you accuse me of manipulating the documents they're wrong because this is falso.Io I stick to what the Catholic Church and its competent organs have ordered and established under the authority of the various popes who have succeeded and she should respect the Pope and the bodies of Chiesa.Se obedience to the Church and the Pope are equivalent to not having critical sense,I am proud not to have,Ubi Petrus ibi ecclesia recites a famous motto, and for me it really matter,I hope that I have for. I hope you do not feel superior to the Pope and to Cong.per the Doctrine of fede.sarebbe very grave.Lei makes claims falsely apodictic,without proving or documenting .No wants to question its preparation,but each topic is shown and she seems,I do not have fatto.E’ free to think what he wants on the Way,but do not confuse his thoughts with what the Church has officially said and done for the day cortesia.Buona.
Thanks Don Ariel for having analyzed the Way and having highlighted all that was wrong. Even more so thank you for having exposed himself in the first person writing this article. For years, I am doing reading the documents I hear, after so much time and work, the usual phrases “we approved, Pope praises us and tells us to keep”.
After many years of suffering with my spouse,now we live together like two strangers, we are close to separation. If you can ask her to also analyze this problem that is created when only one of the two is on the way .
Thank you again so much and I pray the Lord to help increasingly in his mission.
Like Trilù, I too am living in a disastrous family condition. My spouse is a convinced Neocatechumenal, she sees any of my comments as the devil who tempts her. Family life completely absent, now at war for years and if it were not for the children and for a deep love (but overwhelmed and buried by the rubble) we too close to separation. We now live like two strangers under one roof.
How is it possible that a movement that proclaims itself Catholic and faithful to the Holy Church allows such a division in the family? And that it encourages to abandon the family to be ever more present in the neocatechumenal life also with the purpose (stated but not true) to save the family in this way?
Dear Reader,
we have known these things for a long time, Unfortunately.
There are numerous bishops who have received so many complaints over the years regarding the “divorces caused” between spouses, one of whom was not a Neocatechumenal; and also at the Holy See, they have always been informed.
May God grant you the grace of your wife's repentance from this nightmare and may he grant the mercy of Purgatory to all those ecclesiastical authorities who, just as they went to great lengths to talk about family, of marriage, the salvation of the family and the sacredness of marriage, they allowed an intra-ecclesial sect to do things of this kind that, I repeat, the Ecclesiastical Authorities know well.
Thank you, father ariel, for what he wrote to me.
I would like to ask you, if they are not too much trouble, your opinion: but if this is so because the Holy See and the Ecclesiastical Authorities do not intervene more decisively? Perhaps for fear of losing faithful or emptying the churches? In my opinion, modest and ignorant, the true Church is emptying precisely because the CNC continues to spread and lords it over in several parishes, surrounding several unsuspecting and weak faithful in search of help.
The only people who for five / six years have seen the squares full, which instead are more and more empty; churches with an increase of faithful, which instead came out as a real hemorrhage; who fantasize about the increase in confessions, while cobwebs grow on the confessionals; and so to follow, are those Vatican Pravda supporters who, as was the case in the old Soviet regime, they present a reality that does not exist.
The squares once crowded with faithful are now half-empty, the churches are gradually and dramatically emptying, the influx of Masses has drastically dropped and the confessionals have deserted.
To this add the Neocatechumenals who, when they invade a parish, they fill it with their own affiliates and emptied it of the other faithful.
And who does not see and accept this, or is in bad faith, or live a reality that does not exist, starting with the employees of Pravda.
bless the Lord.
Why the Neocatechumenal Way has contempt for the Catholic priesthood?
Already in this matter it called in Back to the Catholic Priesthood Pius XI called:
" After all, as we mentioned from the beginning, themselves enemies of the Church, in their own way, show to hear all the dignity and importance of the Catholic priesthood, directing against this their first and fiercest blows, knowing how intimate the connection which intercedes between the Church and its priests. The fiercest enemies of the Catholic priesthood today are the same enemies of God: here is a title of honor that makes the most worthy of respect and veneration priesthood ".
Dear Don Ariel softly let me point out that she mistakenly calls the Way "movement",but how can read St. John Paul II,It does not define it as such but OF CATHOLIC EDUCATION ITINERARY,that is one of the ways of Christian Initiation of adulti.Credo that the conceptual difference is ...
"May I humbly remind, some short speech excerpts of recent popes on the Way,the capitalized shares are mine:
Pope francesco:"Dear brothers and sisters, YOUR CHARISMA AND 'A GREAT GIFT OF GOD for the Church of our time. We thank the Lord for these fifty years: applause to fifty! And looking at his father, fraternal, and loving faithfulness, never lose faith: He will guard, , and encourage at the same time to go, as beloved disciples, to all peoples, with humble simplicity. I accompany you and encourage you:GO ON! E, please, do not forget to pray for me, I stay here!”
Pope Paul VI:"To live and to promote this awakening is what you call a way" after baptism ", which will renew in today's Christian communities those effects of maturity and deepening, that in the early Church, were realized by the period of preparation for Baptism .. ".
From the letter Ogniqualcolta of the G.P.II 1990:”After over twenty years of life of the communities, spread in Five Continents, taking into account the new vitality which animates the parishes, the missionary impulse and the fruits of conversion which spring from the travel and, lately, by the work of the families who evangelize in de-Christianized areas of Europe and the world ; in view of vocations, arisen from this divine Way, the religious life and the priesthood, and the birth of diocesan colleges of formation to the presbyterate for the new evangelization, which the Redemptoris Mater of Rome ; Having examined the documentation submitted by you : granting the request made to me, I recognize the Neocatechumenal Way as an itinerary of Catholic formation, valid for our society and for our times”.
Note laudatory of Mons.Annibale Bugnini:"" All the reforms, in the Church, provided new principles and new rules promoted, who put into practice the aims of the reform stessa.Così happened after the Council of Trent; nor could it be otherwise present day. The liturgical renewal has a strong influence on the life of the Church. There is need for the liturgical spirituality germinate new flowers of holiness and grace, as well as more intense and action spirituale.Un excellent model Christian apostolate of this renewal is in "Neocatechumenal Communities" that sprang up in Madrid, In the 1962, initiative of some young lay people, with permission, the encouragement and blessing of the most excellent Shepherd Madrid, Casimir Morcillo. The communities are designed to make visible in the parishes the sign of the Missionary Church, and strive to open way for the evangelization of those who have almost abandoned life cristiana.A this end, the members of the 'Community' are trying to live more intensely the Christian liturgical life, beginning with the new catechesis and preparation "catechumenal" Bugnini ... Mason was not.
Still in G.P.II 2002 expermentum to the approval of the Statute:"" How can we not thank the Lord for the fruits brought by the Neocatechumenal Way in its more than thirty years of existence […] In a secularized society like ours, where religious indifference is spreading and many people live as if God did not exist, too many people in need of a new discovery of the sacraments of Christian initiation; especially that of baptism. The Way is certainly one of the providential answers to this urgent need. I wish to stress the importance of the newly approved Statutes for the present and future life of the Neocatechumenal Way, as I have said a few years ago, It constitutes "an itinerary of Catholic formation, valid for our society and for our times ". The statutes also form, an important help for all the pastors of the Church, especially for diocesan bishops, who are entrusted by the Lord, pastoral care and, in particular, Christian initiation of the people in the Diocese ...
Decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity 26 Dec 2010 prot. 1436/10/AIC "The above-mentioned volumes of Catechetical Directory have been revised by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith from 1997 until the 2003 and properly equipped with references to the Catechism of the Catholic Church related to the material covered in all catechesis. Recently, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, after having further examined the results of the above study, in order to give greater security to the implementation of the Neocatechumenal Way, as well as to offer doctrinal guarantees to all the pastors of the Church, It saw fit to deliver to the Pontifical Council for the Laity - the Department as following this ecclesial reality - the task to give specific approval to the Catechetical Directory of the Neocatechumenal Way volumes (cf. letter of 20 November 2010, Prot. N. 36/75 – 33843)…
Pope Benedict XVI:"" How can we not bless the Lord for the spiritual fruits that, through the method of evangelization carried out by you, They were able to collect over the years? How many fresh apostolic energies have been inspired, among both priests among the laity! How many men and women, and how many families, that turned away from the church community or had abandoned the practice of Christian life, through the proclamation of the kerygma and the itinerary of rediscovery of baptism we have been helped to rediscover the joy of faith and enthusiasm of evangelical witness! […] The recent approval of the Statutes of the Way has sealed the esteem and benevolence with which the Holy See follows the work that the Lord has inspired through your Initiators ...
,Regarding catechesis,even before they were examined by the Competent Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,They were examined by Cong.per the Clergy,through a Salesian theologian named Father Joseph Groppo.Dopo having analyzed the voumi,wrote a note that the transmit:"The novelty of these catechesis and the fundamental criterion for their interpretation is the fact that they are speaking of an experience of faith and conversion and thus it is an existential language, whose truth does not lie in the single sentence, but in the overall context: intensely lived experience does not lend itself to clear theoretical formulations, but it is always expressed in a somewhat 'chaotic, with frequent repetitions, with the use of paradoxes, for more images for concepts. I now wish to discover another aspect of these catecheses, or rather of this Neocatechumenal. As a scholar of the history of ancient catechesis must say that the attempt to Kiko and Carmen to actualize the catechumenate is a riuscito.L'esperienza attempt has hinted that deeply contained valuable institution of the first three ...
As has noted ,I just posted the speeches of Popes and ufficiali.So documents that she will not be enough and that restrerà his idea.Spero But to have done riflettere.Grazie and good day.
Dear John,
the operation that she accomplished through these quotes is staggering and in scientific language is called “conceptual manipulation” e “lexical”. It is a very serious operation.
Or better understood: showing devoid of critical and analytical sense, she takes the texts and draws as reference only and exclusively positive steps taken out of whole context, doing so to speak, in this case the documents of the Popes, what they do not tell.
Anyone can then take the documents cited in my text, read them from start to finish and realize how severe were instead references in these Popes to the Neocatechumenal Way in liturgy, ecclesiological, pastoral and missionary.
The operation that you have just made him explain a passage from the Gospel of the Apostle John Beato. In practice she takes the song of John's Gospel which tells attempting to prostitute stoning [cf. GV 7,53-8,11] and he cites in this way:
[Then said Jesus] "Which one of you is without sin, be the first to throw the stone at her ". And again he stooped down, He wrote on the ground. but those, heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the eldest to the last. Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Then Jesus straightened up he said: “Donna, where am I? Has no one condemned?”. She replied,: “No One, man”. And Jesus said to her: “Neither do I condemn” ».
At this point, we can safely say and support:
1. Jesus Christ, He has perhaps doomed prostitute? Not at all, so he had nothing against prostitutes ;
2. Jesus Christ, Was it contrary to prostitution? well, from how he behaved no, clearly she says to the prostitute who does not condemn ;
Then, why not reopen the brothels and do not give legal regulation of prostitution?
You could say and sustain that and more, on that page of the Gospel, simply omitting the only part of the final, which, however, after "Neither do I condemn you", He concluded his words by saying: «[…] will’ and from now on sin no more ".
Citing this track pieces and omitting the final part, which implies the woman's repentance, the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and especially the warning to repent and to sin no more, It tells the Gospel, in this as in many other cases, what the Gospel does not say at all.
And this is called manipulation and falsification of reality, you just need to read through the full texts of official speeches, reported by me, John Paul II until Francis I, in which the Supreme Pontiffs are politely to the hair and the Neocatechumenal contropelo, everyone, and on several occasions.
Some text of approval to experiment the 2002, you quote only what you want. What does it mean instead, when the Saint John Paul II's speech says:
"I want to especially address a word to you priests, that you are committed to the service of the Neocatechumenal communities. Never forget that, as ministers of Christ, you have an irreplaceable role of sanctification, teaching and pastoral guidance to those who walk the route of the Way. Serve with love and generosity the communities entrusted to you!»
Why it is aimed at priests and not the mega-catechists clarifying that it is they who must sanctify, teach and guide? Why Saint John Paul II clarified so that only she seems not to have understood, neocatecumentali that are entrusted to priests, however not mega-catechists, the priest sat sideways to make “Yes” his head while the mega-catechist pontificates ? This, Saint John Paul II, He did not want, It'll clarified since the first approval to experiment.
But above all, what will you understand her, when St. John Paul II says:
"It is now up to the competent offices of the Holy See to examine the Catechetical Directory and all the catechetical and liturgical practices of the Way. I am sure that its members will not fail to go along with generous availability indications that they will come from such authoritative sources ».
I'll tell You, What are you saying the Holy Pontiff, exactly that:
1. Now we will give you guidelines regarding statutes and catechetical courses and you will respect them ;
2. we will give you the precise liturgical directives and will respect ;
3. When the dicasteries of the Holy See will give you guidelines to follow, you will have to obey in every way to what will be commanded.
Or maybe, instead making cuts and sew as better returns, these statements of St. John Paul II she interprets them in any other way?
Massimiliano and Giovanni are the latest in a long series of hard-core that neocat, on the Observatory, in many years they have never been able to respond to anything.
unique topics: we approved, to me does not happen, we approved, it's not true, we approved, you are in bad faith, we approved, you hate.
There had never been one who had the courage to argue something, especially in the face of evidence of Kiko that strap on Youtube.
How strange, But. They claim to be enlightened and discerning, to have the Spirit H24 and then confronted with facts and arguments flee.
Because?
to Thomist.
I always appreciate what you write, but do not kid yourself Irenaeus to move them. Irenaeus was not in the community and therefore could not understand, and they are still approved.
E’ the same logic of Kiko, when he says that man is the slave of the devil and can not do evil. For this set the penitential, to repent of sins committed unintentionally and be forgiven of unwanted faults.
The amended Mamotreti are sealed so as not to compare them with catechesis unchanged. No community has made partnerships to correct the heresies taught in…
Good evening everyone,
released by the CNC with my wife after 23 years to the stage of Election. Well I can only confirm all the distortions described by Father Ariel and other.
Unknowingly liturgical deviations I suffered without giving too much weight while I had become intolerable intrusions of catechists, as I lay, without any training or ecclesiastical appointment that would justify the role.
The parish where I was born and raised in decades is at the mercy of the CNC that have stifled any movement present. Of course the pastor is an ultra nc appointed by the Bishop probably because previous not indicated they could not change things (so it might as well turn the parish of 10.000 inhabitants in “Caliphate Nc”).
Today I live a deep inner struggle because once you leave you have to rebuild normal and free ties with people who have not had this experience for me has always been troubled, view also my long training scout. I rediscovered Sunday mass and the simplicity of true hospitality in a different parish gestures.
A warm greeting!
E’ useless to ask Catechumenals refute doctrinal writings of Don Ariel, nobody knows anything about anything the Church, its documents, of his theology and his doctrine. even Kiko. Maybe some priest, but obviously unsuitable for those formats to mother of The Redeemer, as demonstrated by the two former priests seminarians Neocatechumenal.
I did the catechist 25 years and the only thing required is to learn almost mind mamotreti: nothing added and nothing removed, as the Gospels. Who has not even made the catechist then, least of all.
I discovered the true Church only when I left and I had the chance to learn about things in the way I had never heard.
The fact is that, as Kiko boasts, the Neocatechumenal preaching reaches almost exclusively “pagani” that, not knowing anything, Trust (as I trusted I) that kikiana preaching represents the Church.
Among the laity, who has the most in-depth prior knowledge immediately he recognizes the smell and there falls. Among the priests is another thing, combine other components that I will not say.
Giusto urge the refutation, but impossible…
How easily predictable, no Neocatechumenal has bothered to refute anything.
So I decided to drop an atomic bomb, that will put all neocatechumens facing a choice: continue the Way in bad faith against the immutable doctrine of the Church, or abandon it once and for all. You will not go to anyone to think as before.
Through a trivial logical process, I will show that the assumption on which is based the Neocatechumenal, It is a false assumption, historically and theologically.
Kiko teaches that since the Edict of Milan (313 D.C.) the Catholic Church to please the pagan, He was amending its doctrine, especially about the Holy Mass, and she would introduce you bid ideas and Sacrifice, totally unrelated to the primitive Church, who lived the Eucharist as "singing at Glorious Christ", celebrating his passage from death to life.
It is useless to dwell, the network is the full text of catechesis in question, easily accessible by people of all walks of life.
Let's get to the point. Let's see if you can deny the evidence also facing a self-evident contradiction.
Let me give you a little present, an excerpt from Chapter IV of 'against heresies Saint Irenaeus of Lyons (which apparently it was not a magician pagan nature religion), written in the 180 D.C., or 133 years before the edict that you think would cause a break in the history / liturgy / Doctrine of the Church.
Here is the passage in question:
"The selection of the Church, that the Lord commanded to present worldwide, It is considered by God and is a pure sacrifice he accepts. Not that he needs the sacrifice on our part, but rather it is that the bidder, If his gift is welcomed, he receives glory in what it offers. In fact, with the gift is manifested to the king is the honor that love. Wanting the Lord that we were to offer in simplicity and purity of heart, He warned us, saying,: "If you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, Leave there thy gift before the altar and go 'first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer your gift " (Mt 5, 23)
Is it a duty to offer to God the first fruits of created things as also saith Moses: "No one shall appear before the Lord empty-handed" (Is 23, 15), hence man, expressing his gratitude for the middle of things give Him freely by God, You will receive the honor that comes from him.
The offers they were always presented to God, once among the Jews, Now in the Church. God delights in the latter, but he did not reject the first. From this we can not conclude that they are identical. Equally there is only the appearance. In fact the first were made by servants, the second by children. One and the same is Lord, but the offer of the servants has its own character, and another on the other hand the offer of the children, because freedom is made evident also by means of tenders.
With God nothing is in fact worthless, or meaningless. And therefore those consecrated to God the tithe of their products, while those who have received the freedom of the children consecrated to God all who belong to them: give in joy and freedom that is most valuable, sure to be rewarded with superior goods.
They just like the poor widow of the Gospel, which puts everything into the storehouse whose lives. It is necessary that we make the offer to God and show us all thankful to the Creator, in the sincerity of language and faith without hypocrisy, in the firm hope, burning love, offering the first fruits of those created things that belong. Only the Church offers to God the Creator this pure offering, presenting in thanksgiving as it comes from the action divine creative. In fact we offer things that are his, proclaiming conveniently communion and unity, and confessing the resurrection of the flesh and spirit. As the earthly bread after having received the invocation of God is no longer common bread, but Eucharist, and it includes two realities, the earthly and the heavenly, so too our bodies, receiving the Eucharist, They are no longer corruptible, but they possess the hope of resurrection. "
Questions for catechists Neocatechumenal.
St. Irenaeus was a heretic? He did not have “known Easter”? The text is a false history? Or rather Kiko Carmen has built their entire building on a patently heretical theory?
Dear brother priests and dear friends all,
78 years and a priest since 52, always read The Island of Patmos, The council also to different people, for example, when complaining about Sunday heard in Sunday homilies unsatisfactory, and all I have thanked the board, because the father Ariel Capuchin Father and Dominican father offer every week of “Omela compensation” in the face of so many nonsense that we hear from the pulpit these days, especially from those higher. So all the other interesting items.
I insert because the discussion was civil, even when you are busy, but always with due respect for those who say, Who denies and says to those who denied, and that is good.
None of us, at least we priests, from what I have read, from really great essay by Father Ariel on the Neocatechumenal Way, imputed guilt to the members of this movement. the faults, if there are, They are all of the Holy See, who has not handled the problem, When the Way revealed herself, precisely, a problem that was controlled.
A little bad, our history has known full religious orders that had to crear many problems, but the Church, when yet he decided, He ordered and cured, or the acceptance and approval or condemnation and severe punishment, He has always solved.
Do not come to argue, dear friends Neocatechumenals, you have been approved by holy popes, because in the history of the Church, some saints popes, the damage they have done galore, and also particularly of large.
They are a modest church historian and I could hold you for a long and illustrating, above all, showing that, if he had not been below that capable and determined man of government that was Boniface VIII that remedied, the damage done in a few months by Pope Celestine V, below canonised, They would be no small. And do not be fooled by posthumous black legends created between the '700 and the’ '800 by anticlerical of Boniface VIII, it was instead the right man at the right time. But it is not our speech …
Since when 5 years ago I ceased to teach and to be a parish priest, I focus mainly on confessions, spiritual direction and preaching. I've known all right, of neocatechumenals, here in our area we have “possession” of dozens of parishes. And they are all, these Neocatechumenal, good people moved by good intentions. But when these people finally decide to turn to an outside priest to movement, they do it because they understood that this move is a journey that has a beginning and an end, and the end is not always pleasant.
My experience has taught me that people entering the CN are mostly people who did not have a mature faith, or they did not own a faith. As, through NC, They have returned to the Church, or the idea of the Church that this movement was given to them.
Then people grow, accrues, They have relationships with other believers and ecclesial realities, and so discover that, the Way by which returned in faith, It is not the center of the election and perfection; if anything well discover that it is affected by many gaps and by not a few superficial and controversial doctrines, to this is added the lack of culture and theological preparation of many of his catechists, I too have had the opportunity to investigate.
Then I said: What happens then when people wake up? Sad but true, the experience teaches me that: weak and frail people in the faith, They remain in the structure that supports them and makes them feel protected, the others, acquired a certain awareness and strength, leave to practice the Way, almost always never good, nor painlessly, to undertake ecclesial paths and much more demanding and mature faith. And you know the first thing they ask the priests what? This: “Which texts can I study the doctrine of the Church?”.
This is the good that the Way has made many people, especially to those which are outputs from the Way, but that the Way must, anyhow, their rapprochement to the faith and the Church.
I believe that the Way is near the end of his journey. This is the classic movement born in the total chaos of the post-conciliar, where everything had to be experienced, rebuilt and brought back to unspecified and known origins. His time did it, and now he began his path to the end.
The Holy See, after many years, He approved before to experiment with St. John Paul II, then finally with Pope Benedict XVI 2012, His statutes. Come to think, But, He approved them to accompany him, in a dignified and decorous, toward the tomb of the post council deceased, where I will be certainly erected a day, in that corner of the cemetery, a monument in memory and honor of the fallen movements.
To their undoubted merit, will be sure to return to the Church people who did not even know the Our father and that they did not even make the sign of the cross. And this we shall always be grateful. Then, those who during this journey have truly learned and developed something, from that movement they have come out, and at that point, we, we explained to him what they really mean, the sign of the cross and Our father.
I wanted to ask you not to mistreat the poor Massimiliano and Giovanni. It's true, they are rough, inacculturati and incredibly arrogant in his ignorance. But they are trying to respond, to defend their Way, They are the small of the Way, who hopelessly circumcised reason. Is it any wonder they are able to overcome control * not * a robot to comment.
Where are the wise, the doctors of Sacred Theology, Catechists of fifty years experience, priests of the Way? There is one that keeps even the most religious programs, another who founded a newspaper that has wide circulation. Where am I?
Where are the more than one hundred seminary rectors? Where Gennarini, i Donnini, i Voltage?
I asked my friends of the Way to keep an eye on the comments space, because I did not expect to see appear these giants of the Way. But honestly I am surprised that they left here alone to answer for poor people who have never even seen the books of the Directory and Kiko original and do not know how heavy were the corrections that they could be approved.
Besides these are the lies we tell.
Excellent choice Giovanni, she can refute it does not. I believe that his role model is Geppo the crowds, surreal singer played by Celentano in 1978:
I know what you think but I do not, I do not do it.
And that is why I am strong.
Because I could but I do not.
And you too, dai,
Do not do what
You'd only
Why can
Of course it's a genius this insult, lie and then greet with “peace”. But then, exclusively by grammatical or syntactical point of view, what the hell is going to mean “peace”? It is a subject? A direct object? It implies “be with you / you”? propose, for not adapt to kikiano jargon, to conclude our interventions using other random words, I do not know…”the chair”, “the door”, “the ass”, “the consortium”, O “the direction”.
the boat
Thomist ex NC
I waited a long time to write my experience because still I am part of the way and I married a woman who has begun the journey as a young man and made me know. E’ a wonderful wife who has a very clear his wife and mother vocation. I must admit that this is due to what they said on the journey on the beauty of marriage etc. but also to the fact that he attended the courses of Assisi (vocational and engaged P. Marini). So an abnormal kikiana, because he did not follow only the path.
But I come to my experience: My wife invited me, honestly without pressure, to enter the way, because we wanted to make a common faith journey and we seemed to do the right thing. The community that we frequent is made from 90% the sons of the way, all good guys and even the managers are good people. Until recently we had catechists “soft”. But since they put new megacatechisti arrived from Rome, things are done “serie”. They are more rigid and inflexible on the frequency to the path. Everything they say is accepted because their “the Spirit speaks” and there is no question.
If you do not go to the Eucharist on Saturday because you have strong grounds, and you can go the next day at Mass in the parish, order you that instead you have to go to the celebration of the Sabbath. I confirm that the Eucharist that makes the journey is in fact another Mass, closer to Protestant than Catholic. If you think that Paul VI, the liturgical reform abolished the ancient liturgies and beautiful (He was saved thanks to the Ambrosiana Card. Colombo and perhaps some other) in the name of unity, CN because it has come up with a personality all its?
It hurts, for example see the face of Jesus in the Eucharist you will never kneel, at most a bow and in the end the most important moment is the liturgy of the Word and not the Eucharistic liturgy, certainly not seen as a sin offering banquet and worship. However the utmost concern I have lived in so-called Lent ads, Advent etc. where the secular megacatechista talk for hours like a man possessed, hopefully with priests and monks silent. Undoubtedly I also saw the good, lives changed and conversions, but if the result is to create a parallel church did what good is all this?
Last year, after 10 year old, I got out of the way to perceive all these things and see testimonials from people who have gone. In fact we see the fruits, but like you said do not work if you are creating a parallel church.
I see this Massimiliano which rejects all evidence that the Way is doing harm to the Church, just to see these fruits, but he prefers not to see that this has had serious consequences.
Would not it be better for us to try to produce the same fruits that claims to exist within the church, so that all people can taste them and not just the members of the Way?
The peace of Christ to all.
Congratulations for your courage, Dom Ariel (I do not know if it is well translated from Portuguese to Italian, I used the google translator)
Dear lady,
you have a good translator, because the translation from Portuguese to Italian is very understandable.
***
Dear lady,
It has a good translator, because its translation from Italian Portuguese is very understandable.
Dear anonymous,
I was almost in fireplace 30 year old, entering at twenty.
I started the walk with my husband, that does not belong to you. Also I saw the beginning of good fruit, But along with many negative examples by catechists, communities of older brothers and their children, summed up in one word, rather two: rudeness and arrogance.
I always thought and said that a good Christian no longer be rude and arrogant, because the next is to hate, nothing but love! To this statement I have always been looked upon as a strange.
With the years, the few positive results (mainly dependent on the good-hearted and sincere disposition of a few mood, as it is often noticed) are increasingly diminished, while negative values have increased.
What I finally realized is that the path setting is rotten and wrong at the base, and from there they derive the poisoned fruit, first of blind obedience to the catechists and their dominance, The Catholics do not speak ill of neocat., To persevere in sin (no one must strive to do good, God will do for you!), the humiliation of the next, many liturgical abuses …
The intention of this Don Ariel is clear, just wants to provoke and increase your visibility. The rest is the same thing that all those like him have done and want to do, then dear belonging to the Way, because it always falls? As writes Don Ariel is a staggering banality and even the most unprepared, those belonging to the Way, would know disprove, what are the usual nonsense. Why waste your time with them? They just want to sell a book visibility. We do care what you think Don Ariel? The Church has approved it? The Pope supports us? Do not waste your time following these stupidaggini.Buona day.
Dear John,
I direct a magazine that over the last three years has exceeded thirty million visits. She believes that this happened due to the criticism of the Neocatechumenal, to which I had never previously devoted an essay? Or maybe you think that this paper published today has given visibility to our magazine … retroactive?
we come to banality of which she accuses me, I answer: trivial is your false prophet and bad teacher Kiko Arguello who claims publicly to perform exorcisms and command the Demons [ cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl1vv1dEiiU ] etc … etc …
I who am a minister in sacred, in order to exercise the ministry of exorcist – exercised only a few times and at the request of some exorcists seniors who thought they did not have the necessary physical strength and psychological demand particularly from those turbulent cases – I first receive the ministry by the bishop, with written permission and be filed, then it was further authorized to exercise precise rules and conditions. I might rather know, the lay Kiko, Who gave this mandate, saw that the priests themselves, without the express permission of the bishop, They may not exercise the ministry of exorcist ?
The answer about the fact that I would say piffle: she thinks, before an audience of 100 people, It can hold up and support me, I do not say a theological discourse, but seriously a speech marked by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, responding with full knowledge and cognition to every question? If you can do it, tell me at which we can find public hall before an audience of listeners.
The answer about the fact that her does not care What do you think Ariel: in lei lo sa, or better is clear, that this “fool” Don Ariel, by mandate received from the Holy Church, celebrates the Eucharistic Sacrifice, baptizes, It absolves from sins, administers the anointing of the sick, and he received, Sacramento of the triple grace gift: to be taught, steersmanship, sanctificandi no one has ever given instead to lay confusing Kiko and Carmen? And she calls me diffuser “piffle” which does not listen?
Then follows his rhyme: the Church has approved it … Pope supports us …
Well how come, she, denying the evidence, fails to accept and admit that the Church has approved of whole cloth after having rewritten the statutes and that Benedict XVI and Francis I support you to the point that, every official speech, They have made repeated and stern warnings, that if she could read, You might find all of them published in the official documents of the Holy See? Because in my writing, I report the facts and the official acts.
Denying the evidence is typical of sectarian belonging to psycho-sects. And now tell me, which of them, She or I, It is a fool who says stupid things?
Thank you, however, and in any case, She has given public confirmation of the way, Kiliani the messianic and elected among the elect, They are routinely used to treat priests.
I'm sorry Don Ariel,As writes deserves no reply, though I could easily refute point for punto.Non because it has a special wisdom or intelligence,but because his views are those hackneyed,also quite trivial,said since other. I think it would not hurt if he had more respect for the Popes who have come and gone and I seem to have more than risposto.Mi sorry to say but this is something that would be better put into overcome soffitta.Lei knows very well that in the Church there are the appropriate bodies the protection of the orthodoxy of the faith,if you are not sure maybe ,the appropriate course ,essi.Parafrasando would turn to the famous letter of Card.Ruini, sent to Zoffoli,I would ask not to make judgments,leaving, to the proper authorities,the task of monitoring. I do not know if he read the words of St Paul VI and St. John Paul II,Benedict XVI and Pope Francis,on the Way,if he did not,I invite you to do so ,I do not think it pentirà.Sono convinced that she is just looking for excuse the visibilità.mi franchezza.Non I have more to aggiungere.le nice day and remember you in my prayers
I am sorry, I am that I can not replicate. Faced with those who reject the reality and the fact, I can only, following the example of Christ the Lord, stoop down quietly writing on the sand [cf. GV 8, 3-6].
Unfortunately she stubbornly denies that documents written by the relevant ministries, both in the speeches of Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis I., There are hard and stern warnings to:
1. the total respect of the liturgical books and in particular of education Sacramentum;
3. respect of pastors and priests who are not ancillary figures to those of the lay ;
4. the severe invitation to respect the parish community ;
5. the very strict invitation not occur in the zones of mission with preset modes and especially taxation;
6. the freedom of people to choose a different path from faith Way;
etc … etc …
needless to reiterate what I wrote, if she does not intend to read it or if she attempts to manipulate reality, so am i pray for you, because the Holy Spirit, the true one, your minds open and not close.
Axel Theimer [visit our minds] … Kindle a light [may it be the light of the intellect]
Dear brother Ariel, Praised be Jesus Christ! And thanks for the laudable and useful work you did.
I am a Roman presbyter, ho ho 82 year old, it gives 4 He retired to private life with various health ailments, Today army chaplain functions early in an institute of religious in the Castelli Romani area and prepare myself to my encounter with God.
I wanted to write a testimonial but your blow / response with this gentleman I was blown away: what to say? Just a few words, since he mentions among other Cardinal. Camillo Ruini, I have known very well and for various reasons.
At the time I was pastor of a parish in Rome I called the Neocatechumenal (I found that there already settled for years) to compliance with various rules, from liturgical ones, but above all I clarified that if they wanted the catechesis on specific themes of their choice, we would have made me and the other three parochial vicars, and then their catechists could speak and instruct them to walk.
The head of catechists I literally attacked, and publicly he accused me of not having respect for the laity in the Church, and he mocked me in front of everyone. Finally he said, I quote it verbatim reporting: “you of the council thou hast not understand a dick, study it!”.
Let's clarify: then I had 68 years and had taught for 30 ecclesiology years and for years was one of the trainers at the Roman Major Seminary. How true Ariel when you speak of in your great job … respectable builders fell from the scaffolding filled with the Holy Spirit who throw barbs and give lessons to the whole world.
Practically it happened to me that, a hospital attendant, before all, He had told the surgeon to learn what had surgery.
Which brings us to the then Cardinal Vicar Camillo Ruini cited unjustly and for your dome this gentleman: after slamming off the Neocatechumenals from the parish, if dal Cardinal Vicario, and I rehearsed the fact, and the decision taken by me. the answer was as follows: “You did well. But you know, Unfortunately, They are particular subjects and not always easy to manage”.
Point, I have nothing else to add.
Letter Signed
For John:
If you respond to documented statements of Don Ariel it is so simple, why it doesn't? For the same reason that no Neocatechumenal NEVER responds point by point to the comments on the various liturgical irregularities, let's say so, and non-compliance with the statutes and other practices not in line with the Catholic Church (see ballots “scarnificatori” the consciences, a mo’ of the Inquisition, see obedience to the catechists, see text of catechesis inaccessible to the ordinary faithful and parish priests, etc.).
And the reason is that he would not know what to say, not being able to do so. Massimiliano quoted the Roman Missal about the bread, but on all other points he has been silent.
Start as well to refute, Mr. John.
We will wait anxiously her work.
Demonstrate that the Way does not perform any liturgical abuse, that catechists during the ballots respect the inner hole (as well as provides your status), that tithing does not exist, that the “mamotretti” They have not been corrected with respect to the sacrifice of the Mass, to the real presence, the redemption, the vicarious satisfaction, to the ministerial priesthood, to the Sacrament of Penance, all'escatologia intermediate, exegesis on the binding of Isaac, at the “need of the devil” (controls…checks as well, fifth volume, “Initiation to prayer”), the brackets Constantine, et cetera, etc.
Or the Catholic Church has changed Doctrine and canonized heresy or Kiko is heretical (but if it was, and he has come, however, he has not retracted nor publicly asked forgiveness).
Third party.
Respond with topics they can and pass up the slogans.
Dear Massimiliano
There is no moral lynching.
You may raise questions.
You say things.
You give the other a liar.
You think you talk to people who do not know the Neocatechumenal Way.
Massimiliano is not so.
Who says you and makes you questions that you do not answer, He knows very well the reality of the Neocatechumenal Way.
Massimiliano stop being the victim if you want a constructive dialogue enter into the merits of the issues.
Reply with objective facts of objective facts that you are offered.
If you are not able to argue stop saying things you can not prove and stop complaining.
Massimiliano're a little’ confused and out of reality.
I suggest you talk to your catechists and ask them what they must write.
Make a better service to your Lord and master Kiko Arguello stopping to say nonsense.
LUCA
For Massimiliano
No one is lynching. Let's just say her mind and knows how to lie, how it can realize anyone witnessing a Eucharist (mass) neocatecumenale.
A Massimiliano
Apostate because by that they treated me when I left.
Hate,violence? Ever since my former kikatekisti with unfortunates who were crying during the fierce ballots. If you look real hatred, catechists say that does not give the tithe because he did alms, I will hate!
What do you think of Kiko exorcist and those who imitate? Ask a real exorcist what it means.
Statute approved? Without hate wonder: she obeys the Church?
More precisely, according to the Statute :
In the group of preparation there must always be a priest.
Yellow Cards, environmental and resonances are held only in exceptional cases and not always.
The celebration should be open to all, your parish's timetable?
Liturgical Books, The pope ORDERED TO EXACT TRACK WITHOUT ADDED NE’ OMISSIONS:
Use an altar, with candles “normal” ?
The Communion do it AFTER the priest and everyone immediately received the Bread?
Purification makes the priest, deacon or an instituted acolyte?
Do thanks at the end instead of the Ballet?
Last question. because liturkikia is untouchable and no Liturgy?
He obeys his community to… [Ed. incomplete sentence, missing a piece of text, It was not cut by the editorial staff]
Good morning Don Ariel,
They Massimiliano and I apologize if I rise again. I am given that yesterday I sent a response to Mrs. Paola accusing me of being a liar and did not see the publication of the message. Anyway, I wanted to invite you to look into the blog observatory and observe the fruits of hatred instilled through his post. As you can see, I am subjected to a lynch, absolutely in absentia, only for expressing my opinion on his blog. That's what I meant yesterday, if we create division among Christians, these are the fruits that we collect and we are certainly bearers of peace. Bringing but Division, enmity, I hate and just. I greet you and thank you.
peace
After his alert was entered, It did not depend on us, but by the fact that his text was made from pieces sent several times by sticking together.
If what is published is not correct you send it back we correct or insert.
Thank you very much.
I remained in silence after reading his splendid masterpiece, dear Father Ariel.
It amazed me as an immense, unexpected long-desired gift but that more can not be believed now receive.
I feel the overwhelming need to make them reach the deepest expression of my immense gratitude.
I thank God that he allowed to devote so much time to this meritorious work.
Its biggest advantage is that you are a priest, Finally!
From the father's time Zoffoli lacked an outlet of such net position, put pen to paper.
For years, we fight alone (I also collaborate to Blog "in truth Observatory on C.N."), so I thought, with great sadness that just our Pastors, at all levels, they left us alone.
Very we owe to Tripudio that always has been spent on this mission to make "Truth" without ever having personally part of the Way, as Lino List, He died recently and, I'm sure, He continues with his prayers to support us.
I also witnessed the futility (related?) of all our complaints to parish, Bishops, Cardinals, Congregations and even the Pope himself.
I read that she, in support of his claims, a rich archive of experiences of priests who have signed and certified their testimonies. This comforts me and restores me hope. One of the greatest pains with which I had to live it was the sense of abandonment by those who had to take care of the flock from wolves ravaged with impunity under their eyes and see the complicity of some shepherds with the wolves themselves, very able to dress up as sheep, or to bribe - if necessary - with economic or insurance ecclesiastical promotions sinecures (This also were able, and I am a witness).
I'm not intervened so far in order not to write freely as I could and possibly adding very little.
This is why I started with the "silence" expression but I'm ready, for my part - I want to tell him - to intervene if any were needed to support and sustain what she says from the clergy, one way or another, It had to do with the Neocatechumenal Way. Namely, I am ready to confirm, with my thirty years of experience in the journey, who brought me up to pay for a long time a catechist service in the midst of travel, under the direct guidance of Kiko and Carmen, so that I was able to "learn" firsthand. So I do not speak from hearsay.
For years I have known no avail inability to change things from within, until I realized that nothing had to be changed because the journey is rotten to her and the seed that generated it is not that of the Good Sower, but the devil disguised as an angel of light. It is now a long time since Kiko threw the mask and only his associates, who they like him for that gain from this shameful Ambaradan, or her lobotomized followers and reduced to slavery perfect - in a kind of addiction from which they are afraid to go out - are doing their utmost in giving evidence to still believe in him.
But doubts creep, an increasing malaise spreads and nothing happens, since all these unfortunates would ideally like to take out alone while continuing on the carousel of kikolandia that keeps them from looking at the reality of life of which they are afraid and in which now they would move as total misfits. Which is why many of the exiles end up on the couch to psychiatrists and psychoanalysts who can not find cure. Nice way for adults! Beautiful training, I do not say to form "adult Christians" but only "mature men".
I stop here.
Only two points I want to emphasize and bring out:
1. The threatened complaints in extremis.
They are ridiculous clowns. When the battle comes the last act put you in front of the formidable specter of the complaint. I had the honor of hearing addressed this threat by Kiko imbestialito.
To this day I'm still waiting, because I told him that I was really happy with this decision and that I could not wait to race against him and Carmen before the competent offices (the complaint to the Holy See was to focus, to begin, on the refusal to obey).
Needless to clarify, but I do the same, who was careful not to sue, as always! For our part we have forwarded many times and so exposed to the Holy See, without ever being summoned and without ever receiving any response in writing.
2. Here we enter the second point:
It is surprising, but maybe not, given the subject in question: while on the one hand, as it was easy to predict, no complaint has ever playing their part in us (mica are fools!) - departed, instead, and go and sign a number of "slander" of any kind against our people, especially aimed at tarnishing morally. Adulteries, twin crises and their children, stragglers children, obviously, swallowed by the world around ....
That's their modus operandi. This is seedy and - this yes - established "practice of the Neocatechumenal Way". On other words it does not spend. The Lord himself has defended and preserved us, making us walk among snakes and scorpions. Giving us strength to rebuild a shattered life that was all geared to the journey, the Lord has sustained us and blessed, and today everything is much better than when we were with them and not imagine what it would be today if we had remained in their midst! I get goose skin and pity those who know very well and is still there.
I add only that I am painful witness, especially with regard to parish priests and even bishops who considered "enemies" they have fielded and always on time this strategy of slander. For some it was put about the rumor that had been the lover (who then promptly he was the one who commanded in the parish .... that's why the way "holy" was persecuted ... Obviously the "great whore"!) for other, worthy of a more refined treatment, the worst voice (lie) they put around was that they were pedophiles, cunningly practice against the boys or girls.
But look a little; only to discover that among their greatest friends and powerful patrons are just the most famous serial of shame pedophiles who prowl in the Church!
Excuse my speech.
Thanks for everything and thanks again, on behalf of all those like me, that many wounds, inflicted by the ruthless way kikiano / carmeniano, They had to care, and we are many!
Pax
Dear Massimiliano
My ex-brother in faith neocatechumenal.
You say that in catechetical directory of Neocatechumenal Way approved in 2010 the Church there is nothing correct but there is only a few notes taken by the CCC .
Good, I think that what you say does not correspond to the truth.
We can solve this thing very easily, do so and ways to publish all the Catechetical Directory so all of us haters professionals we can think again and embrace the new aesthetic Neocatechumenal again.
See how easy it is!!!!
LUCA
Dear Luca,
As you well know, the article 8 of the Statute of the Neocatechumenal, states that the route is divided into stages, with its celebrations and catechesis for each stage. I think it's so obvious, catechetical directory that can not be published and accessible to all, but only “to insiders “, catechists, pastor, bishop etc.. An advice, Ask your pastor to be able to inspect, I should welcome your inquiry.
Dear Massimiliano,
My pastor has no catechetical directory of the Neocatechumenal Way.
I wrote to the Pontifical Commission for the Laity, and they told me to ask the Neocatechumenal Way.
I went to your location in Via del Mascherino in Rome, and they told me that the volumes are not for sale but can be bought at 10 euro a volume, only by the Neocatechumenal catechists but volume on the stage that should bring to their communities.
Massimiliano, but what “insiders” We were talking.
You're the only Neocatechumenal movement born after Vatican II that you have a “private catechism” inaccessible to the Christian people.
Massimiliano you are the only movement that produces 4 documents the year that are repeated only and exclusively behind closed doors between you, without any approval of the Church and no publication.
I speak of the beginning of the year catechesis and the catechesis of the Church strong times, ie Advent,Christmas, Lent and Easter.
In 50 I speak of years of walking 200 reserved and segregated documents that will sing and you will play among YOU.
Massimiliano when you start to do serious?
LUCA
Dear Massimiliano,
On the statute there is no article that explains the Catechetical Directory should be segregated.
If the Neocatechumenal Way was a serious movement would stop doing these little games of the three cards with the Church and with people.
There are no secrets authentic documents and segregated.
There are no reference documents of movements that are not public and published.
What are you hiding and those who are hiding?
Why do you refuse to make fun of people.
If you have a document produced by your founder, where there is all the doctrine of the movement because you are afraid to publish.
And do not tell me you ruined the surprise to your followers, because it becomes ridiculous.
You decline the comparison, Rejected transparency, rejected the clarity towards the people, Your steps are an open secret
If not published, corroborated the suspicion that the paper you use is not what you approved the Church.
There is clear the problem?
Massimiliano to me that's fine too , be conspiratorial and liars is perhaps the best way to turn people away.
It could be something good. Pity,you are a wasted opportunity!!!…
Dear Luca,
Really on the Statute do not even written by many volumes make up the directory and even the type of paper used. I do not understand this controversy. The Neocatechumenate, with the latest statutes, It is also used as “adult catechumenate”, so I do not see what the problem is whether the documents relating to the catechumenate, They are usable only by experts. There is surely nothing to hide, since they are documents held by competent ecclesiastical organs, of the parish priests and catechists, but especially, if in case of catechesis or passages, they are made aware of the neocatechumens (or catechumens). It can not then be any suspicion that the documents used for catechesis, other than those approved, simply because the same documents the pastor has them and the parish priest or his assistant is always present during the Catechesis. If they were “secreted”, as you say mischievously, would not be in possession of any.
Dear Massimiliano.
I told you that the Catechetical Directory is not in possession of my pastor is not even his collaborators. They only catechists of the Neocatechumenal Way, and not even all but volume on the stage that are enabled by their catechists to bring only orally in the community at their assigned.
During these catechesis can not make recordings you can not even take notes or ask questions.
You have to just listen and there is just one-way communication, the catechist speaks and listens to the catechumen unrelated or explanation of the content served up.
The catechist is called to carefully follow the Catechetical Directory that goes learned almost by heart. It does so because the catechist requires no religious preparation, doctrinal or liturgical, to become catechists enough to be rated by the community and have a listen to the catechesis report its catechumens.
That's why applications are not accepted because the average catechist can not answer, only knows the way and the catechesis which must contain and Kiko nothing else.
LUCA
Dear Massimiliano
Another great genius idea of your Lord and master Kiko Arguello was to not even define how many books of catechetical directory, so can continue undeterred adding stages of stages in its infinite path to nowhere.
Item 22 Statute Continuing Education:
"The Neocatechumenal communities: persevering in the weekly celebration of the Word and of the Sunday Eucharist and fellowship actively inserted into the pastoral work of the parish community, Unity of love to give signs'
But who sees them to church on Sunday and in the pastoral parish of love and unity, continue on their behalf and under the command of catechists even after they have finished the path.
Other than the parish renewal.
LUCA
I intervene calmly expressing that I appreciate Mr.. Massimiliano (and I say this without irony, with genuine sincerity). I appreciate the passion with which he defended on one side, But not giving satisfactory answers from the other. And always reiterating my sincerity devoid of any irony, I think he deserves all the respect due to a court-appointed lawyer who finds himself defending a thief arrested with the stolen goods in the hands of the police after the security cameras were shooting from start to finish all of the robbery scene. That thief needs of defense, and must be defended. And since most lawyers have refused, The task fell to the lawyer office, to whom, I repeat, It must render all the honor of the event, because he deserves it.
I am a priest ambrosiano. I've never been owner pastor because I work as a canon lawyer activity in some diocesan offices, the defender of the bond and the teaching of this subject. With this various kinds of commitments I could not hold a parish, But I've always lived in the parish, and added parochial vicar.
Dear Father Ariel mentions, in his work, our late Bishop, card. Carlo Maria Martini, narrating that the Neocatechumenal Way in the diocese, did not like them. He said the real, and other details should be added, But better to avoid doing so. I can say, Anyway, that our diocese of Milan is a somewhat’ particular, because it has its own rite (the Ambrosian) which typically, all the priests, by so-called conservatives to progressives, They are rather jealous. And this was a big problem, with the Way, which in fact claims the use of a … “proper rite”.
Our diocese has more than 1.100 parishes for a number of faithful than 5 million and, if I do not go astray, in the city of Milan, parishes where the Neocatechumenal is present, I'm 3 O 4. This already makes it clear throughout: de facto, this movement, by us is non-existent. Multiple attempts were made over time and with more priests, This is my personal experience: when they came to the pastor of my parish of residence of “itinerant catechists”, the priest said that we were not a mission land and that our diocese has sent missionaries to the world since the time of St. Charles Borromeo, and which still has a considerable number of its priests in various mission lands.
They changed register and, after a few months, They reappeared, and they did it in another way. That was when the pastor asked me to see clearly and deeply, first of all by a canonical point of view. First of all, ask to be able to see their statutes but above all the texts of the approved catechism. To answer all introduced me to the decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity who in 2012 He approves the statutes. I said again that I did not watch a decree, instantly available on the website of the Holy See, but the texts in their statutes and especially the catechism adopted and approved by the Holy See. Tergiversarono in various ways, reaffirming (as I read in various interventions in this discussion page), they had been approved and had been promoted by the church and by the popes. But, these statutes and above all the texts of the approved catechism, They never jumped out, and they never were exhibited.
I can testify that there have been various other similar attempts with several other parishes in Milan, and several other pastors have turned to me, knowing that I have been involved on several occasions in the past the various legal aspects of lay movements. All approached parish priests have asked the statutes and above all the texts of the approved catechism, all received the same answers, and none were given.
I can only conclude by saying that anyone who comes to me and ask me to esibirgli the Code of Canon Law, I take the code and tell him I perform, e, if someone tells me he wants to read it, or tell him where he can buy, or, in a gentle way, I offer him a loan,telling him to take care to give it back when you have read.
So these statutes but above the approved texts of the catechism, where they are available? I do not care to read them, and he does not even cared to different parishes of which I said above, but if a lay movement demand to enter into a parish and of taking for its activities of a parish, It must consider that it is moving, how it is structured and organized, what are your goals written black on white and above, having an approved catechism, what kind of catechetical line follows. This fact does not say and does not explain a decree of approval of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, which by the way does not indicate at all: “They are approved, take them sight unseen!”. Paragraph? Otherwise, It would be enough to take the decree of approval of a law, and to enforce the law without knowing the text of the law, but only its decree of approval.
Don Giovanni da Milano
On the fraudulent approval think of the fact that the Statute was approved BEFORE Directory. In other words, approved a statute based on still sub judice catechetetici texts and then proved crammed with heresies and blunders. Strange process, vero?
A Massimiliano which repeats the usual lies parrot, I remember all the main disobedience to your Constitution and the Missal:
1- in the preparatory team MUST be the priest and there is never;
2- admonitions and environment are the exception and not the rule;
3-Eucharist: ONLY you can stand up in your place. You should tell AFTER the priest and each individually immediately received the Bread and not all together;
4-Purification: Only the priest can do it, deacon or an instituted acolyte, and instead it provides ostiarius or responsible.
I confirm the abuses listed by Paola. I have witnessed it.
Not to mention the obligation of the tithe, the claim of catechists to give orders of consciousness, freedom, family, sexuality, work, children, goods and so on, the sins confessed publicly in ruthless ballots.
Massimiliano, Jesus forgave all but the hypocrites. You and regulator… [Ed. incomplete sentence, missing a piece of text, It was not cut by the editorial staff]
I continue to confirm the veracity of the allegation made by Tomista ex CN in its response to the Massimiliano 14.07. Until the approval of the statutes of the Eucharist is received and consumed seated sitting after the priest or other person (strictly male, even without a specific training) he had distributed a piece of unleavened bread to everyone. After the distribution and before the consummation of the bread, only the priest said “The body of Christ bring us to everlasting life, to the congregation he responded “amen”. After approval has been re-introduced the’Lamb of God and the recitation of the formula “man, not worthy…. But say’ just a word, and I shall be healed”. Communion is received only standing, but it continues to be consumed together with the priest after the distribution to all. In fact, there stands up for a few seconds just to get his hands on a piece of bread by the priest or his. In practice it is a farce, a kind of sop to the church authorities.
About the bread, I do not know if it follows “General ordination norms of the Roman Missal”, but I know that to those who must prepare is given… [Ed. incomplete sentence, missing a piece of text, It was not cut by the editorial staff]
The bread is prepared according to a precise recipe on how to prepare and drawings to do. You may only use flour type 00. I do not know if the preparation of such bread follow "the general ordination norms of the Roman Missal", but I know that this bread is made and used as a "host" only in the Neocatechumenal Way. However, I must point out that you actually care not to spill as much bread crumbs, either during or after the consummation of the Eucharist, during the "purification". Purification but I have NEVER seen it done by a priest or a deacon, but only by managers, porters or other person strictly male.
Another thing of which you are not told, but which I believe is planned in the statutes is that at least once a month to celebrate the Eucharist with the parish community, then in a Mass open to tutti.Tali celebrations, when they are not open all. First are made fully Neocatechumenals, only celebrated in church. But the doors of the church are always strictly closed and always leads somewhere side entrance, so that from outside no one can guess that the church will take place in ... [Ed. incomplete sentence, missing a piece of text, It was not cut by the editorial staff]
Finally, one thing that struck me very (very negatively) and perhaps I find one of the poisoned fruit of the way, an aberration is the rejection and repudiation suffered by some former NC by their parents, that should be the people we love the most. I am referring both to Tomista ex CN that the two former seminarians mother of The Redeemer, now pastors, who gave their testimony. These are phenomena that characterize totalitarian regimes or sects such as the Jehovah's Witnesses. What one fails to mother and no longer love and her son away just because it came out the way I find it an aberration gravissima.Spero for them that God will open your eyes to these parents and make them review and apologize to the children while there is still time (in life).It is for you, children treated neither more nor less than as outcasts, I implore the infinite love of God, that can help to soothe these wounds perhaps irremediable. For my part I can not understand but only remotely imagine your suffering, but I will remember you in my prayers. I was fortunate to be the only one in my family of origin on their way and this helped me to always keep a look ... [Ed. incomplete sentence, missing a piece of text, It was not cut by the editorial staff]
Mrs. Paola,
The general organization of the Roman Missal, to the point 320 recital: “bread for the celebration of the Eucharist, It must be exclusively of wheat, packaged recently and unleavened, according to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church”. So how do you see, there is no mention Ostia, which over the centuries it has been adopted for obvious practical situations from church, but bread.
Then in step 321 dell'ogmr says: the nature of REQUIRES sign that the matter
YOU ARE THESE REALLY AS FOOD.
Then at the end of this article reads: the gesture of breaking bread, in which the Eucharist was in apostolic time, It brings out more clearly the force and importance of the sign of the unity of all in the one bread and the sign of charity, for the fact that “ONE BREAD IS DISTRIBUTED AMONG THE BROTHERS”
I believe I need not add anything to what he says the general organization of the Roman Missal.
peace
I confirm, if proof were needed, As stated by former NC Tomista in his reply to “Massimiliano” of the 14.07. First I confirm that Massimiliano consciously lies.
I started back in the catechesis 1990 yet even when the statutes were talking.
In the Eucharistic celebrations (commissioning) They were omitted Gloria, the belief, the washbasin, l Prayers, O Lord, I am not worthy to be the Lamb of God 's e U L', The Creed was beginning to recite (just always sung the same way… I-ooo…) only after the end of Redditio, and if they celebrated together two or more communities, and even one of them had not made the Redditio, and therefore he had not received (sic!) the belief, This was omitted altogether.
I confirm that all the furnishings and liturgical instrumentario must be strictly of the way. I confirm that the offertory is nonexistent, it is simply a transfer of the occurrence for the elevation from the canteen service small table (no altar, that is non-existent). forbidden to bow. If someone did, it would be so much rejected and rebuked you would not dare repeat the gesture.
I continue to confirm the veracity of the allegation made by Tomista ex CN in its response to the Massimiliano 14.07. Until the approval of the statutes of the Eucharist is received and consumed seated sitting after the priest or other person (strictly male, even without a specific training) he had distributed a piece of unleavened bread to everyone. After the distribution and before the consummation of the bread, only the priest said, "The body of Christ keep us for eternal life, to the congregation responded "Amen". After approval has been re-introduced the Agnus Dei, and the recitation of the formula "Lord, I am not worthy .... but 'just a word, and I shall be healed ". Communion is received only standing, but it continues to be consumed together with the priest after the distribution to all. In fact, there stands up for a few seconds just to get his hands on a piece of bread by the priest or his. In practice it is a farce, a kind of sop to the church authorities.
About the bread, I do not know if it follows "General ordination norms of the Roman Missal", but I know that to those who must prepare is given ...
Paola, as I said above, the approval of the statutes and of catechetical directory, He has radically changed the Way, so what it was once just a pass on things orally, now everything “statutory”, so the mistakes that were made, Now you can no longer do. I, too, have joined in the walk 1990 and I lived on my skin this change. I remember that we were scared of the changes introduced, but instead they have been a blessing. I do not know since I do not witness a celebration with the Neocatechumenal communities, but now (actually a 15 ina years) It is exactly like a regular Mass, so much so that by the statutes, Mass has entered in fact in the service of the parish that welcomes the Way. It is open to all, Come and see for yourself.
But really?
Now “the celebration with the Neocatechumenal communities”
“It is exactly like a regular Mass”?
So first it was a tune-normal?
So respected to the letter Liturgical Books? Go in procession to receive Communion with the Host and with the same mode of distribution that we see in our Parishes?
Finally you have sorted the provisions of the Letter Arinze? Now that's news! In fact there had been granted two years, only two, from the 2005. But as they say? Better late than never.
Pax
Pax face,
The statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way, to the number 13, comma 3 dice:
“as regards the distribution of Holy Communion under both species the neocatechumens receive standing, remain in place”.
Then as I said in another comment:
“As for the matter of the Eucharist, The general regulation of the Roman missal to the point 320 recital: "Bread for the celebration of the Eucharist, It must be exclusively of wheat, packaged recently and unleavened, according to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church ". So how do you see, there is no mention Ostia, which over the centuries it has been adopted for obvious practical situations from church, but bread”.
Then in step 321 dell'ogmr says: the nature of REQUIRES sign that matter THESE REALLY IS AS FOOD.
Then at the end of this article reads:
“the gesture of breaking bread, in which the Eucharist was in apostolic time, It brings out more clearly the force and importance of the sign of the unity of all in the one bread and the sign of charity, the fact that "ONE BREAD IS DISTRIBUTED AMONG THE BROTHERS”
Greetings.
So it is not true that the Neocatechumenal celebration ” Now (in fact for fifteen years) It is exactly like a regular Mass” !
The truth is that to ensure compatibility fixes and we do not even think, Instead of obeying the Church, continue to exhibit your arbitrary and partial interpretations of the Roman Missal (as you do with the Word of God) to legitimize your outlandish practices. After years of violent raids of Carmen at the Vatican you have got Arinze's letter that you have subtly undermined.
That "Holy Communion under both kinds the neocatechumens receive standing, remaining in place "does not mean that you are allowed to get back you sat holding my bread to eat it all together to the priest who presides, he sat, after deployment. This is your arbitrary behavior perpetuated by stubbornly and woe origins who you touch it. Ditto for the distribution of wine, made a second round. Far from being the Body and Blood of the One Christ sacrificed for us, for you are two signs, separate and distinct, one of slavery-death-resurrection of freedom the other.
Maximilian C., I was going to read his comments in which needlessly wordy, as is usual between you kikobots, refutes decades of documented evidence of a piteous serqua “it's not true”, “I never happened”, but I had to stop immediately the first lie from peanuts: the approval of the Executive Board.
1) the approved volumes have secrets, because you have done so many and such pressures to make such, unique case in the history of the Church, so the approval does not make sense to exist, whereas that document included the publication of the volumes.
2) the original texts were so unorthodox that I have virtually rewritten it from scratch, and in some places even they have deleted entire sections, as in the case of “comment” epileptic possessed of your guru heretic present in the volume of tra.
So, what are we talking about?
3) The dance is not the liturgical? Maybe we want to warn about the Gnostic dinner with milk and honey celebrated by way of Eucharist, within your set during the first week of Easter?
Dear bps,
What should I tell her any more than we said on fb or blog. As proof of what I said to Don Ariel said that, that there are many experiences or former, you are always the same. As you see on this blog are the same haters. See Don Ariel? Where are all these negative experiences? They are always the same ten people, simply multiply their time on the internet to speak ill of the way for reasons of personal hatred.
Bps, the ritual of which he spoke, It was approved along with all the rites contained in catechetical directory.
There was not any “rewrite” of catechesis, but simply the footnotes of explanatory page that bring to church documents.
No, no, just rewritten. The original texts (I from first to last) They were altered in the edition 2010. Other than footnotes page! But there are none so deaf as those who will not hear, so you are responsible for your condemnation.
Maximilian C., I answer on both points:
The first: we are always the same haters, up to a dozen people…
Mistake that it is so well. Few of you are writing assiduously, but we spokesman for many who do not intervene; that means nothing.
We have repeatedly analyzed the “drift” of the way and how it is drying to the source. As long as they can continue to wave numeroni nonexistent? …shouting: Miracles! Impressive!…to pull the wool over the eyes to the unsuspecting walkers who, over time, They are increasingly savvy?
This applies to catechesis in parishes, for vocations to fill too many seminars around the world…
The details you can find them all in the numerous articles of “Observatory” on these issues.
Second: no "rewriting", but only notes.
Namely, the notes would be made ONLY to confirm the orthodoxy of catechesis. It gives us a surprising confirmation: Kiko and travel intentionally lie to walkers as the one you carry over is the popular version by the way leaders in communities. Confirming that do not accept correction and are determined to disobey…
Dear father Ariel,
thank you very much for this his masterful masterpiece, I'm taking care to spread among the priests who know.
I am the son of the Neocatechumenal, grown in Kiko head (I have never been taught to kneel during the consecration, genuflettermi in front of the Tabernacle and discovered Eucharistic adoration as an adult). A 13 years I have been forced to begin the journey, I abandoned after 16 years for spiritual reasons, theological and liturgical. I took ten years to make this difficult decision, because I had the illusion that they can change the path from the inside.
In CN I have been humbled, continually silenced (by parents and catechists) and psychologically destroyed. I was a catechist and singer, and passed through hell whenever azzardavo me not to uniformarmi Kiko thought- (One intellect of the way, avveroisticamente intended): my knowledge of the Catechism and Sacred Theology were regarded as forms of pride and spiritual pride, my love for the Holy Mass and for the respect of the liturgical books for self-righteous and hypocritical legalism, my love for the Holy Mass and for the respect of the liturgical books for self-righteous and hypocritical legalism, my attempt to give liturgical chant a certain decorum for perfectionism and hysteria and Carib (I was once reprimanded for having kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer, because it did not respect the assembly ... one more time for composing songs, because "we the living charisma!!! You're nobody to make songs! Kiko has not composed anything, He has just discovered the music that has the Word of God when it comes out of his mouth!!! If you think you know you are proud!!).
When I communicated catechists my decision to leave the way, They threatened me as boss Cosa Nostra: "The devil will destroy your marriage!! God has called you in the Way, and if you leave you're turning your back on God!!!”
My Perdoni will keep l'anonymity, But being a teacher of Catholic religion, I do not care to see me revoked the suitability for their criminal retaliation.
My parents and catechists treat me as an apostate, deceived by the devil, who has lost all discernment, and especially can not stand that I have a priest as Spiritual Director.
In greet, I ask you to remember all of us former Neocatechumenal in prayer, but above all in the Holy Mass.
Finally I ask an opinion on these two items, written by me:
https://neocatecumenali.blogspot.com/2018/09/sul-concetto-di-comunita-all-interno-del-cnc.html?m=1#comment-form
https://neocatecumenali.blogspot.com/2018/09/strane-allergie-cui-vanno-soggetti-i.html?m=1
Praised be Jesus Christ
Dear father Ariel,
He wrote in his kind reply: “…that gypsy eighty played by Kiko Arguello who tells how she would narrate before the bishops that he commands the Demons…”.
Tolga well as the conditional! I point the link a Youtube Kiko hear where it claims to do more and exorcisms and cast out demons and to have received a "sign" from the Holy Spirit (minute 07,52) to always speak by divine inspiration (minute 15,40) and calls “of left”of priests guilty of daring to challenge it whistling (minute 13,55).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl1vv1dEiiU
He knows that Carmen boasted of being appealed by Madonna “blessed are you among women” and he has been commissioned to rebuild the Church ? It was also the site of the Way.
Believe me, a lot of neocat the ape trying to do too exorcisms. Is it possible that even that could shake up the congregation? And I was not the only one to write. I understand the difficulties of the priests with the Way, but their silence in the polls when catechists violate consciences and destroy people. They are responsible for the souls.
Thanks again for the good he does.
Gentile don Ariel,
I read his essay unnecessarily long and I have to say that I agree with Mr.. Alberto. The essay seems written by riot or by one of his so-called observers. Same slang hater, same language of contempt for the walk and especially the same editing. For me she might just blaze, but this is not my problem, but its. I do not think that will be enough 1200 characters to be able to rebut every point of his writing kilometric (riot says the same things, with the same hatred antineocatecumenale, with many fewer words), but some of these are. 1) talks about doctrinal blunders, but it is absolutely false, because the catechetical directory was approved in 2010 and it contains all the catechesis that are made during the itinerary. Among other things, the legendary giant corrections that told her and her clone blaze, never existed, because the PCL merely insert this note at bottom of page with its references to church documents.
2) She speaks, as well as his clone, the "abuses" that there would in the celebration according to the Neocatechumenal practice and here we go again in the legendary, as there are no. They only put legends standing by those unfamiliar with the Way or denigrate those who want to satisfy his thirst for personal revenge. there are not the "homilies of the laity", but only, as approved constitution "brief commentaries on the readings". There are no "dances during the celebration", but dance (that is not the Assyrian Babylonian as she creeps, but the Davidic) begins just finished celebrating, as also evidenced by the video she posted). It is false that you receive communion seated, but instead, as approved constitution, He is receiving standing. It is false that there are steps the cup (she calls him "Coppone", but this is his problem), as it is the presbyter that passes through the faithful, who stand up, take a sip of wine and return the cup to the priest. It is false that the bread is packaged in accordance with the rules of Kiko. Kiko showed only signs to be tracked on the bread and the psalm be recited during packaging.
as well as the names of the commentators are always the same on his blog and on to blaze (coincidentally). I said that she speaks of these testimonies "terrible", but obviously it omits to mention positive ones (oh yeah ... those are brainwashed as you call them haters). Rightly he said that John Paul II has not approved the definitive statutes, but only those "experimentally", In fact, Benedict XVI was to do so in 2008. Finally I invite you to also read all of the Popes speeches on the Neocatechumenal Way in 50 year old, not only that of Benedict XVI (famous amongst you haters, like that of 3 bend the ears, that never was so and said so in a letter next). All the talk of the Popes, by Paul VI to finish the letter of greetings to Kiko for its 80 years of Pope Francis (not "Francis I" as shown by her. But this hope was a typo).
Anyway, to conclude, the time lost mileage to write this article, full of mistakes on the way, who obviously did not know or have known only through the writings of Father zoffoli, also packed with nonsense, in his place I would have spent in the confessional, or to evangelize. Through the Way I met many holy priests who lose their lives to evangelize. In poor countries, Congo, India, Nigeria, between mice and snakes or Europe dechristianized. Leather, humiliated and see a good priest like her, waste time doing the hater of the Neocatechumenal Way and to point the finger at the bishops and cardinals is really sad.
Anyway, to conclude, the time lost mileage to write this article, full of mistakes on the way, who obviously did not know or have known only through the writings of Father zoffoli, also packed with nonsense, in his place I would have spent in the confessional, or to evangelize. Through the Way I met many holy priests who lose their lives to evangelize. In poor countries, Congo, India, Nigeria, between mice and snakes or Europe dechristianized. Leather, humiliated and see a good priest like her, waste time doing the hater of the Neocatechumenal Way and to point the finger at the bishops and cardinals is really sad.
***
I noticed that the comment is incomplete and probably when sending comments, something must not have worked and missing part, which I think must be the IV. In the next comment I will post the missing part. I apologize incident.
PART IV.
The bread is packaged in accordance with the general standards order of the Roman Missal, both in terms of the materials to use and the times, both the nature of the sign. We arrive to another legend, one that makes more anger, the legend “the carelessness and the dispersion of the fragments of the Eucharist”. It's false! The distribution of the Eucharistic species is always so scrupulous and manic, under the supervision of priests or deacons. In thirty years I have never seen a crumb fall into the ground and not be restored. Being in a circle, the priest who distributes the Eucharist there are always at least 100 eyes, more his. It is false that the sacred vessels are not cleansed properly, In fact, the purification is always made by Priest or Deacon or in the absence of a Deacon, the data processor and can assure you that in all the celebrations I attended, this operation takes place in an increasingly manic. You talk about some testimonials “terrible”, which then curiously they are always the same four or five, on all anticammino blog always play the same,
dear Mr. Massimiliano,
Do you mind.
She consciously lies.
She lied.
You mind as mind Kiko and how they lie all the catechists and priests Neocatechumenal.
You're lying when he says that the Catechetical Directory of the Neocatechumenal Way has been approved in 2010 as it appeared. You're lying when he says that the congregation has nothing incorrect: catechists parents possess ALL volumes directory, pre and post approval.
All Heresies previous editions have disappeared, many sentences were even completely transformed. Try to read synopsis of the first edition of catechesis on the Eucharist and approved edition. Do it. And try to repeat that there have been no fixes.
E’ obviously a rhetorical request, Why, I repeat, she would continue to lie and to deny the evidence, as he was taught by his catechists “believe against reason, obey without understanding”.
I said that her mind. Mind, because until 2005 all of the Neocatechumenal communities of the world omitted Gloria, the belief, the washbasin, l’brother, prays, L 'Lamb of God and the Lord I'm not worthy, Kiko order and Carmen (and of Farnes I presume) against the liturgical norms.
Even today they commit serious abuses, that she, lying, care.
The Neocatechumenal celebrate stubbornly on a table, they call "mess" and never altar. Celebrate on a table even in the presence of an altar, though, They prefer to "celebrate" in the halls, if the churches are not sufficiently neocatecumenalizzabili.
The Neocatechumenal slavishly follow and so of the Trent the rubrics of Kiko: The songs, the arrangement of the chairs, the cover lectern, le penny, goblets, the menorah, the Icon of Our Lady, the processional cross etc.. everything must be strictly kikiano, and this does not compromise.
The Offertory is nonexistent, as the celebrant says the prayers provided by the Missal as we exchange the sign of peace to the sound of "for the sake of my brothers" or "Look how beautiful" or "Evenu Shalom”. Besides Kiko he teaches that in the Mass does not offer anything to God, ergo the offertory neocatecumenale is conceived as mere "preparation of the occurrence" and does not deserve any emphasis.
The "priest" is always singing and only the second Eucharistic Prayer as the only supreme music by Kiko, and also changes in different words of the same.
And 'it is forbidden to kneel at the consecration in the sci-made NC (serious abuse).
The communion is simultaneous assembly and priest (serious and forbidden by the Instruction Abuse Sacramentum she being a catechist neocatecumenale and liar, ignore.
You're lying when he says that you receive communion standing: with a deft (but stupid) pun you able to interpret the new statutes and to make him say what they do not tell; there is no difference between "receiving" and "do" the communion. Instead you, cunning and evil, you receive it standing and sitting fairies. It is also prohibited by catechists receive Communion kneeling or on the tongue.
Also there Menorah on the table is an abuse.
Although the dance is an abuse, although not prohibited by the rubrics (Embee, the rubrics do not prohibit burping during the proclamation of the Gospel!).
The shape and the bread drawings ...
… I could go on with your serious and sacrilegious abuse. Having no time, I will just mention that in the celebrations of the Neocatechumenal Way purification of sacred vessels, It is done by laymen, moreover AFTER the blessing (usually, during the dance).
I forgot, dear Massimiliano, of finally reiterate: she MIND.
Dear Massimiliano,
I might indicate an element that seems to escape her. A little bad, rather, I assure you there's nothing wrong. For it is good that provide a fundamental explanation: I'm not really a free citizen but it depends in all respects by the legitimate ecclesiastical authority which does not bind me “employment contract for an indefinite period”, but a sacrament of grace that implies that my devout and filial obedience to this same ecclesiastical authority, personified forward at all from the figure of the Bishop, upon which the valid and licit celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice celebrated by me to the mandate received by the Bishop and exercising my ministry in perfect communion with the Bishop in communion with Rome Vescvo. This is called “obedience”, what I, Minister bosomes, I have always respected.
If I am what she says, namely a 'hater' then a public speaker of hate, in this case to know that in all human and moral aspects, should commit a “crime” much more serious than what could be the secret fling with a woman and then the violation of chastity to which I am bound by solemn promise to keep me celibate, which implies not the mere celibacy, but precisely chastity.
Long before he was elected Pope Francis I, I I warned in my writings public, in my catechesis and in my sermons, that the worst sins are those that go "from the waist up," not "from the waist down,". In this regard, I have always remembered, with great theological rigor, that the queen of all the deadly sins is pride, not lust; and not by chance, in the list of deadly sins, pride is on the first place.
So, a priest who hates and spreading public hatred, It is by far a lot worse, but really much worse than a priest who secretly keeps a mistress.
Questions in this regard to any bishop, or to any doctor of sacred moral theology, to confirm what I just said and written, all to clarify that, if I were the person depicted in his commentary, as soon as she should fulfill its inescapable duty of the Christian conscience: immediately notify the Ecclesiastical Authority that a priest, to say the least unworthy, It is sowing scandal among the People of God by spreading it between hatred and falsehood.
It therefore hasten to do so, because it is a duty of the Christian conscience to which she can not and must not shirk, all the more, belonging to a movement that has the Holy Spirit in your pocket and always ready for use, it should thus particularly easy esserle.
Ecclesiastical Authority she can also produce my reply to his speech, in which I say now as follows: on the basis of what he writes and the way she writes it, she is comparable – it is only a paradoxical example to make the idea – a prostitute beating the sidewalk on Via Casilina and before a police patrol which stops in front of her and demand “you are prostituting yourself?” she answers “Are you crazy? How dare you and how dare you, I'm acting all five mysteries of the Holy Rosary. Shame on you, you are the haters of the holy apostles of the Holy Rosary!”».
there, she is doing the same thing, offending among other things my intelligence, which incidentally is not really my, is a gift of grace that God has given me in “comodato d'uso” and of which I will have to respond as indicated by the Parable of the Talents [Mt 25, 14-30].
Now I'll explain why she, denying the evidence and stating that the Police “under the street lamp of Via Casilina” in truth it is only “reciting all five mysteries of the Holy Rosary”, It offends my intelligence and that of many other people:
1. I do not write and do not ever say anything in public to hear, I speak only on the basis of documented evidence that they can be exhibited to the Ecclesiastical Authority in case you were in any way called to account and reason for what I say;
2. I am preparing a guide for good CThe Peace sure on the Neocatechumenal Way, indicating its pitfalls and mistakes, all things that can be publicly affirmed and disseminated through publications, only and exclusively through trial try;
3. I start from the scientific principle that everything in the field of accusations and allegations can not be proven, It can not and should never be presented as true.
Said this, while she pontificates on the Holy Rosary under the streetlight Via Casilina, explaining that the Neocatechumenal Way is the essence of the liturgy orthodoxy and respect of the Holy Eucharist, I threw them – to her as to Alberto to which she does recall and that commented before her from beneath another lamppost – a public challenge to please collect, namely, the following:
Let me call in your presence before the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and then before the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in my formulating the load of hate and false charges of spreading news against the Holy Neocatechumenal, at that point I'll answer this way:
1. I ask that a large screen is mounted and will demand that they are viewed from beginning to end a total of 14 hours and twenty minutes of footage in which were taken, around the world, various Masses of the Neocatechumenal in which takes place every sort of abomination on Holy Eucharist;
2. will perform in the original copy of the letters and the reports of the bishops and priests that those movies I provided them;
3.It will produce a total of 41 hours and eight minutes recorded catechesis made by the various mega-catechists around Italy alone, inside of which are expressed, contained and diffuse the worst heresies pneumatological, Christological, Trinitarian and ecclesiological, then I will perform the original copy of the letters of those who, those recordings, I supplied it.
At that point she will deny, with all the grace that his personal Holy Spirit will infuse, The authenticity of these video images and recorded contents of the catecheses accompanied by reports and testimonial letters.
So you will have to prove that hours and hours of video footage that contain sequences documenting the most serious liturgical abuses and often authentic Eucharistic sacrilege, followed by dozens of hours of recordings heretical catechesis, then the letters of bishops and priests who have provided me with all these materials detailing dates, places, people, groups and above all unnecessary calls made to them over time, are all false materials, ergo I am a "hater" who spread hatred.
I await the complaint on your part and the consequent my call at the relevant departments to account and reason of what I have written and said. All the rest, believe me: it is only the justification of a prostitute under the street lamp of the Via Casilina which belies the police stating that she is in that place to play all five Mysteries of the Holy Rosary and that is part of the holy apostles of the Holy Rosary.
Hers, such Alberto who spoke and wrote before her, I remember and repeat that stick to this way, without considering the merits, refuting the arguments presented with the usual rigmarole "we have been approved … we have been approved …», unfortunately it implies on your part to make first of all a great disservice to the Neocatechumenal Way, before a person who speaks only and exclusively on the basis of documentary evidence and not subject to denial.
Gentile don Ariel,
She knows that nobody never denuncierei, let alone a man of God. I do not lie as he says with violence and hatred the apostate (name omen), what it was happening before the provisional statutes has been corrected and all communities celebrate under the provisions of the Holy See. It happened again to be hosted in many communities, in Italy and in Europe and I must say that you feel everywhere at home, with the celebration that takes place in the same way everywhere. So I repeat them, the sacrileges abuse etc, are myths circulated by those who hate the Way.
She says she would do a great disservice to the Way. But I'm not defending the Way, how could I? The Way defends Christ and His Church, enjoying good fruit. Conversion, seminars worldwide, infertile marriages that start with joy to life, families who leave their safety to evangelize in places don have never heard of Jesus Christ. Rather dear Father Ariel, I would think good on the service that makes the priestly ministry, if he spends much of his time with finger pointing.
peace
Dear Massimiliano C. ,
sign yes “Don Andrea” means nothing, and I had my way I would put (as my use), name, last name, cities and even tax code. I do not do it for two reasons: the first, because I am the principal of a higher institute of religious sciences, and even repeat it in every language known to me that I speak only for myself, I risk to involve my institution, I can not do; The second one, why can not I engage my archdiocese and my Archbishop.
I'm not a fantasy nik, Ariel's father, who for years knows me deeply and that carries on with impeccable professionalism this useful magazine, is the first witness to what.
Here's the story …
The Archbishop entrusts me a small parish near the center of our institute of religious sciences, I am hoping that as a theologian able to put in line the catechists of the Neocatechumenal that in that context had to 25 years their staff. Li summoned for a series of reflections taken from me, which not only did not accept, because when I touched the dogmatic aspects of faith, in a manner insolent and brash came to laugh in my face.
knowing thank God to be able to count on the support of my archbishop (all obvious thing for a priest!) I began shortly after with the prohibitions: 1) put anything on Saturday night with the exception of the faithful, 2) no private Masses in the parish halls, 3) nothing Masses celebrated in the church on a table set up on the altar instead of consecrated, 4) nothing “introductions” e “resonances” who were then in fact true homilies, especially stuffed with serious doctrinal errors.
Part of their protest at the archbishop who even receives them and which assigns them to the Vicar General, who was verbally assaulted when he said that the provisions are dictated by the parish priest in accordance with the diocesan ordinary.
Not being able to do as he pleased, Neocatechumenals abandon the parish, but without finding priests of other parishes willing to give in use the parish hall for catechesis and private Masses celebrated behind closed doors between them.
On my account start running rumors about alleged moral flaws and violations related to the sixth commandment. I had a lot of trouble to convince two precious collaborators of the institute of religious sciences not to resign from their positions. One managed to convince her, thanks to the help given by her husband, the other I could not convince her. For those who have not understood it … were my lovers (!?).
When one was, the other went, rumor was that my two lovers had quarreled with each other out of jealousy (!?).
I worked for years with these collaborators, and more, but raw, He was issued a single sigh, everything broke loose after my friction with the Neocatechumenals. Let's say that this is pure coincidence.
These people portrayed as so zealous and respectful of all rules from Mr.. Massimiliano, in complete disobedience to the bishop began to use the halls of a local hotel, doing come rolling two priests Neocatechumenals from outside the diocese, emerged from Redemtoris Mater, provided that no ordinary diocesan approval celebrating private masses in unconsecrated places. For the uninitiated we clarify that no priest from another diocese who is not authorized can exercise the sacred ministry in the canonical territory of another bishop, liturgies celebrating species not satisfying the liturgical books and in unconsecrated space.
Taking my father the answer Ariel and player “Thomist ex NC”, I have to tell her, Themselves. Massimiliano, that things are in two terms, where one excludes the other: a lei, as it has been said, consciously lies, or, as perhaps can be, instead she belongs to another Neocatechumenal, compliance with the provisions of the bishops, those of parish priests, the liturgical books etc. .. etc …
When after a few months the chancellor Archbishop notified to the two priests who were not allowed to celebrate in the diocesan territory without the authorization required, They ceased their celebrations, and a month later, when the archbishop went to a parish to administer Confirmations, the churchyard a group of people, without reason and reason, He yelled as he entered “Judah” e “fool”. Also this, But, is no coincidence, because how can you explain Mr.. Massimiliano, May, the Neocatechumenal put in row, They would lack of respect to a bishop.
Know that you are one of several priests who with their name, last name , address and even tax code, Ariel's father has provided a report to 30 pages where I summarize the whole story in my capacity as eyewitness.
Dear Father Andrea,
Not by the merits of his experience, not knowing the other also “Bell”, but from what I told you in fact allowed them to do the Way. According to the statutes of the Way it has precise rules, I would say “statuted” and the rules she had imposed, in fact, they did not ensure the continuation of the journey as it is. A little bad, it may happen that after the bishop “who loves” the way in his diocese, can change their minds, or a collaborator has any reserves towards this “gift of the Holy Spirit”, as he called him the Holy Father. A little bad, If the Way you can not do in his parish, there will be another who will welcome you and will make possible its smooth conduct. I believe however, which of you priests there are many prejudices towards the Neocatechumenal Way. Perhaps because it is inconvenient, because it is the wee hours, long celebrations, but I assure you that the benefits drawn from them, compared with some inconveniences are many more. The fruits of conversion, openness to life and especially to repay by far the few sacrifices faith.
peace
Dear Massimiliano,
the Way I know nothing apart from the personal knowledge of some Neocatechumenal, They have always seemed good people and with whom I never had anything to say.
But don Andrea wrote of having imposed the following prohibitions:
1) put anything on Saturday night with the exception of the faithful,
2) no private Masses in the parish halls,
3) nothing Masses celebrated in the church on a table set up on the altar instead of consecrated,
4) nothing "introductions" and "resonance" that were then in fact true homilies….
She said that Don Andrea, de facto, thus it is forbidden to do the Way. I believe that anyone did not know anything, like me, This offering an insight fairly reliable. Even assuming that Don Andrea is wrong on the serious doctrinal errors, What however improbable, It is not even her doubt, rereading the above, that there may be some problems a little’ sometimes more serious than do the small hours?
A me, ignorantly, It seems to be almost the institution of another church. Even without denying the possibility of positive results, however, that no one here has denied, as it seems to me
Dear Klaus,
The article 13, comma 2 of the Statute states that the neocatechumens celebrate the Sunday Eucharist “in the small community, after the first vespers of Sunday”, that is, on Saturday night. These celebrations, while it is also part of the Parish and then open pastoral to other faithful, I think they can not lose its nature “the small community”. So I guess it is the discernment of the parish priest or persons responsible for distributing the faithful who request, in several communities. If for “no private Masses in the parish halls”, means “nothing made for a few”, then you understand that you go out in Article 13 comma 2 (celebrated in small communities).
The introductions and resonances (short) They are prescribed by statute. Sometimes you may exceed, but in that case the priest can stop the brother who exceeds (It happens to us).
I have not dared to say that Don Andrea is wrong on doctrinal errors (of which I have spoken), Instead I said elsewhere that the catechetical directory was approved.
On the fact that sometimes you do the small hours, I can tell you to do a celebration without the pressure of time and clock…
Finally words without taboo topic. Thanks Don Ariel!
Dear father Ariel,
I would like to ask: it is true that the process of beatification and canonization after the council are reformed? First we wanted 4 miracles compared to 2 of today?
dear fabio,
I think I can respond, perhaps with some knowledge, because I am dedicated to the study first and then the Causes of Saints, before they reached relatively happy times …
The process discipline, over the centuries, It has been subject to numerous variations. Suffice to know is that the distinction “grade” including Blessed and Saints, It has been defined only around the fifteenth century, earlier, say, Blessed or Saints, it was the same thing, this I can also understand the liturgical texts, where it still refers to the Blessed Apostles, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and so on.
Today beatifications and canonizations are attributed to the Holy See that has created a special department, the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, previously it had jurisdiction of the Congregation for the rites; but especially, for many centuries, until the eleventh century around, canonizations were of competence of the bishops of the dioceses.
The number of required miracles dependent and may vary from ecclesiastical disciplines approved or changed over time, as well as a Roman Pontiff, being supreme legislator, may, for example “dispense” a candidate for beatification and canonization by the miracle ascertained, and it happened several times recently also.
No miracles are required for the beatification of the martyrs, because it has always, the church, considers the miracle of martyrdom acceptance and the offering of life for the salvation of faith, the Church and the People of God.
In the pages of Theologica L'Patmos Island can find my own studio where I explain to the public the evolution of procedures and ecclesiastical laws, can find it WHO
Dearest Don Francesco,
Twenty years ago, priest from just 4 year old, after two years as assistant pastor I was appointed parish priest and assigned to a parish neocatechumenal. I had to ask for ten days the tabernacle keys reproduced in several copies from the Neocatechumenal. The eleventh day I took the Blessed Sacrament, I called a locksmith to change the lock and made him.
They protested saying “you are not the master of the Passover bread”, It said that it was called the Eucharist and the Blessed Sacrament, I was not at all master, but but I was loyal and legitimate guardian.
That was welcome, we can add that I had to also change the key of the canonical, because I do not even know how many copies had between them duplicate the keys.
The introverted characters tend to internalize, with what ensues, and so, after a year and a half, priest by half past five, I asked the bishop to give me a year off because I needed to treat myself and regenerate. This request prostrated me most, I feared that the bishop thought that the first job I collapsed before the first difficulties. But the bishop was fatherly and I took off from the embarrassment telling “I am that I was wrong to send first assignment in a parish where the Neocatechumenal Way is rooted in twenty years”.
The bishop was finally forced to appoint parish administrator of that parish a Latin American priest left the seminary Redemptoris Mater them because no priest of our presbytery wanted to go. That parish today is similar to a house meetings (the canonical), a tavern and a discotheque (the church), a collection point for people psychologically issues (indiscriminately all the local parish) …
In the region Campania, officially,the Neocatechumenal parishes 140 circa, de facto, But, there are many more [Ed: the list of 2012 And WHO, today there are many more].
Case in: the Diocese of Ischia. Population less than 60.000, 25 parishes (some of which are more than just another title), and these parishes 7 totally in the hands of the Neocatechumenal. What does it mean: an entire diocese in the hands of the Neocatechumenal.
I too believe in the sanctity …”of him” and I loved him very much, I believe, to the test, that was not perfect, But I believe,to the test, that is holy, and has left us a beautiful teaching.
Alessio
priest Campania
God reward her dear father Ariel, for being, as they say, bread bread and wine wine, without many uncertain terms. For years, with other, Observatory on the blog on the Neocatechumenal Way, relentlessly denounce the serious deviations of this heretical sect decorated mock Catholicism, the damage it does to the psyche and the soul, the wounds it inflicts to the Church (in spite of the supposed fruits), and bullying, I profanity, the lies, the scams, abuses perpetrated by many high-ranking members of the sect.
They are more than a mafia, branched at all levels, both ecclesial and civil. They had they all talked as she talks the way today would not exist.
Thanks again, for his zeal.
Jesus Christ be praised!
Dear Friends,
I thank you and especially I apologize because in truth I did not know your site, although several friends, including fellow priests, I have reported it in these two days, and little by little I'm reading it with interest.
As Editions The Island of Patmos we intend to publish as soon as possible a book that can serve as information and thus guide our faithful, limiting ourselves to report only and exclusively proven facts and rigorously documented.
As a priest he also wrote in these public lines, It is no secret that I have for years confessor to a considerable number of my confreres, whose age is between 28 they 86 year old.
I felt many bad fruit, and so many painful situations, both in the inner hole in which the outer hole, right in my relationship with numerous priests from their experiences with the Neocatechumenal Way were often deeply scarred and severely injured.
I quote only one case to give you the reach of all, and it is a documented fact, although thank God not resulted either in a scandal in the press nor in a court case.
A pastor fifty, that he tried to put them in line in the parish assigned to him, He was found to be very larvatamente but equally effective rumored to have special care for kids (!?). Needless to say: nowadays, a similar sigh, would in any knee priest, terrorizing as they say to death.
These hints of chatter sottintendevano a clear blackmail: or do as we say, or we spoil you with two simple chatter circulated without anyone knowing about who you are and who leaked certain sighs two-way.
The Brother spoke with me, and it was really terrified. At that point I called a few friends and lawyers together all three of the istruimmo what to do. I go to the conclusion of the fact: identified the two mega-makers catechists, these, convened in a completely informal at the local police station, Three soldiers surrendered before a private letter of apology to the priest when he was signed that the widespread larvatamente rumors were completely false; and in exchange for that letter, they were sued.
The letter is a real and existing document, as they are still existing three carabinieri and the two lawyer friends who accompanied the priest to the police station to withdraw the letter of apology written and signed by the parties concerned.
The soul and the conscience of a priest is a very delicate world, in which only one other priest who enjoys the full confidence of a brother, It can approach intimately with great delicacy, as on occasion I repeated to family or friends who wanted to see and greet the priests seriously ill, without being allowed to do. And when, if anything after two hours, I left the room and I met their displeasure eyes, almost as if I were in there to “to steal” around the time of others, I turned to them saying: "Always, but especially in a time like this, a priest needs another priest. Or maybe, someone of you, It is believed to be able to do, especially sacramentally, what can I do instead, entering with the tear to the eye and the hand stroking semi-cold?».
That's why often, you lay faithful, have difficulty putting together concrete and documented testimonies of priests. Difficulties that instead I not, that the evidence and testimony we have gathered enough, Unfortunately!
Therefore, if the gentlemen in question dare, to me, disruptive actions, for example by means of that group of prelates toward them complacent, for reasons and for reasons unclear, I can guarantee that they will end “hanged” with the ropes that they themselves will be prepared.
How did you know I consider this movement bad for the Church and for our people suffering from pain and fragility of various kinds, even without having ever denied that through this medium, vitiated by doctrinal errors and serious liturgical abuses sometimes verges on sacrilege Eucharistic, God's grace, if he wants, can lead to the salvation of souls. Nor have I ever claimed and will claim that the Neocatechumenal Movement is made up of bad people, indeed I think teeming with so many good people animated by good faith and with good intentions.
However, it remains fixed point and usually the clear warning of the Holy Gospel:
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit; A good tree can not bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. You will therefore be able to recognize them from their fruits " [Mt 7, 17-20].
And from the fruits, Unfortunately, we are acknowledging this tree, that is not a healthy tree.
I wish you every sincere and good grace from the Lord,
Ariel, presbyter
Dear brother,
Also this time you hit the, in conclusion, if I had not done the priest, you could have done the specialist in microsurgery.
I add my poor and perhaps unnecessary comment that comes from my forty years of experience pastor.
This movement who declined to be named movement has always been for the dioceses (I speak of those Italian) a big problem, from its earliest settlements.
Let's face with an example: from morning till night, suddenly we passed by the faithful at the end of Mass greeted the priest kissed the hand (until the end of the '60s even early 70s) neocat the greenhorn that pointed the finger at the senior priests, saying in an imperious tone “you” … (the late 70s / early 80s).
For the faithful or newbies a boarding, do not respect the priests, young or old they are, It is always risky, because if the priests do not feel respected in their indelible sacramental character that has turned them ontologically, it's difficult, if not impossible, do you set foot in the parishes ( or to use a father francesismo Ariel … that you do put er ass on the benches!).
But it seems that some saint, the early 80s, It believed that the future of the church was in the movements. Some saints are not wrong, while Father Ariel explains (Deep and rightly) that even the saints can take glaring blunders without this makes them less holy or unholy.
However, if the specific case believe this movimentista bright future of the church is the Holy Father, the bishops will have to take note and comply. And from this arise problems: many of our bishops open to neocat not because they wanted to open, but because he was made to understand, or they themselves have sought to understand, they had to open, and that's!
Like this,Italian movimentista explosion of springtime of the Spirit, I saw in the early '80s seventy priests weep bitter tears with the Neocatechumenals that invaded the parishes, of which then became, in fact, authentic owners and managers. And what these priests complained? They complained: “pushy people … arrogant … disrespectful … ready to attack accusing the other of being closed to the Spirit, to that Spirit who spoke through them …”
Several times the faithful from parishes ousted, or forced to flee from parishes totally neocatecumenalizzate, if they are taken to death with bishops and pastors. Then, if anything, after having made bruises were leaving (in those '80s and' 90s) to go to clap in St Peter's Square or in the classroom at the time Nervi, Today Paul VI.
What we had to say, we bishops, pastors elderly and young priests to these faithful? Maybe that's responsible for what was one to whom went to clap in St Peter's Square or in Nervi then Paul VI Hall ?
So that, us parish priests, to hand over all, most of our bishops and the first of the bishops of the church, we were beaten by the Neocatechumenal we invaded parishes, we have not been supported by the bishops that it replicated “… She wants him”, then we were beaten by the faithful forced to flee from the Neocatechumenal parishes that had invaded and placed before an implicit choice: or become one of our or …
Of course, the long and painful illness, I believe that “his” I have first of all purified, then really led to holiness. And I truly believe that it is holy, But the fact remains that, of errors, in this as in other cases, He has committed many, if the facts are facts and if the fruits are those products that today we have before.
All it expressed with tender disenchantment born of faith, that as often reiterates Father Ariel is not born by emotional feelings, but by reason.
Thanks for what you wrote. E’ all true. I came from the so-called Way shortly before finish, after trying in vain to change it from within small. I sent them down the drain one night when our supercatechista shouted at us that we owed him absolute obedience! Other than freedom. Everything useless! E’ a sect just. Thank God, after a crisis, we are back in the Church, but the children / and no, marked by so-called catechists, by their orders and meddling in the emotional sphere…
… I stop here, she knows what I'm talking. What abuses silent priests mother of The Redeemer I'm not surprised. But why priests, bishops and cardinals ammutoliscano in the face of overt and claimed abuses do not understand. I refer to when Kiko boasted publicly about exorcisms, to give orders to the demons and to confine. And prelates silent. Do you think I wrote twice to the appropriate congregation to report the spiritual danger which exposed the unwary followers take pride in putting mock it in direct relation with the evil. Replies? Zero. Evidently of souls cares nothing, assuming that we believe. Thank you.
God bless her.
Dear Reader,
if you read the comments made by some priests, in one of them [veda “Don Francesco Messina”] find answer, and partly also find in my little response is to comment “Blessed are the poor in spirit”.
I guarantee that often, the priests, They are the first victims, and even the most severely affected. Unfortunately, in certain situations, the priest should avoid creating further divisions, losses and disputes among the members of the People of God. Nor they are missed even bishops who in the past have just prevented the Neocatechumenal to enter their dioceses, or that by themselves have expelled them.
Do not forget that we are, however, a structure in which all proceeds from top to bottom, not vice versa from the bottom upwards, as is the ideologues believe those who speak of so-called “Basic Church”, because ours is a “Summit Church” not of “base”.
The people that you have more on hand are first of all the priests, or rather the priests, Then the bishops. You get it, and sometimes even to seconds, contact is not difficult, what can risultarvi rather difficult to understand is that neither the priests nor bishops can act in an autonomous manner in which sometimes you'd expect faithful. I will try to clarify everything with a couple of examples: if the Holy See approves the statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way before to experiment and then definitively, even with all the necessary corrections, on which the people involved are silent, Bishop may say: “In my diocese this approval is not worth”? Or maybe you can tell the parish priest in his parish?
The bishop for his diocese, the parish priest for the parish, They have the right to say that for pastoral reasons and for the maintenance of ecclesial communion, This movement is not welcome in the diocese or the parish? Of course, they can do it. Now, however, we set an example: the bishop is called to Rome by the relevant ministry or the Papal Secretariat where he is called to account and the reason why a Movement, Perhaps definitely problematic,This is first known to the Holy See the Neocatechumenal Way, but and in fact approved, It has not been authorized to operate in his diocese. At that point, I can tell you what I would do as bishop: I would write on the spot my letter of resignation from the pastoral governance of the diocese and would aim our feet so that is accepted immediately. Indeed, in my diocese as bishop totally weakened and effectively de-legitimized by the Holy See some bureaucrat who lives in his dream world of compromises and more compromises and the penalty paid on other people's skin, I would not go back, except as bishop emeritus dignified retired to private life, if you choose to live in my former diocese, because otherwise the win would give to those who have disobeyed the first Bishop, then they went to protest in Rome because the bishop did not listen to their desires and whims.
The same example can be applied to the pastor called the same way by the bishop.
If you want the second example, there he served: several bishops, in various parts of the world, and especially in Latin America, in the old days they did not want the Jesuits in their dioceses and others have just expelled them from their dioceses, motivating all in virtue of the fact that they fomented various doctrinal tendencies and socio-political. Well, say today – is an example grotesque, of course! – in these same diocese the Jesuits organize cults in Manitou revered by the Sioux tribe. Do you think one of these bishops expel them from his diocese? They were Benedictines, Augustinian, of Franciscans, of Dominicans, of Carmelites … and, expel them, but who would dare touch the Jesuits today, even if they were dancing around the totem praising Manitù ?
Since she complains that she wrote to the competent department of the Holy See and that he never received response, if the thing can console – because when it comes to digestive after the hearty meal we just have to console ourselves with their misfortunes – I can tell you that long ago, because of a small group of monsignorini very much misses, It was masterminded a bad despite in a dicastery of the Holy See, and all in flagrant and contemptuous violation of all fundamental canon law. Well you think – always to comfort – the pygmy put to chair the department in his capacity as prefect, when I wrote to him complaining about this serious and unprecedented violation of all the canonical norms, ever answered me?
If we want to throw it into a joke, place that the irony will save us, then you know that this same prefect, whose intellectual acuity is equal to his stature that does not reach the meter and a half in height, oblivious to the serious injustice done to a priest, shortly afterwards he complained to the press the way “not human” where it was received after the extradition to Italy's former ruthless murderer Cesare Battisti.
Now, she understand: if we do not react with a touch of irony, really in danger of dying, in excruciating spasms, with liver cancer.
As for that gypsy eighty played by Kiko Arguello who tells how she would narrate before the bishops that he commands the Demons and I suppose cow them even with their orders, there would be enough that only one of the bishops, It equipped with only a glimmer of virility – rare commodity today! -, He had risen and had made him a pat on the head, just like any elementary school teacher would any ten year old boy taken by a fit of elation and convinced that Mac Tayson that stretches all the ground, or Francesco Totti in its full splendor football scores a goal after the other.
A caress, it would only be a caress enough, then eighty child excited that we have seen repeatedly pontificate during the liturgical action to the presence of two hundred bishops come to the facts house of Galilee Worldwide, with paid tickets and expensed to the nines, to go to celebrate “new pharaoh” …
However, try to understand and to share with its bishops and priests perhaps a bigger ancòra of her grief, because the worst thing that can be reduced by a shepherd in the care of souls is the utter helplessness, although it is still the Eucharistic Sacrifice and offering prayer, that no one will ever take away.
How strange, I do not know if I'm getting old, if by chance I'm almost becoming even wiser, or if I'm simply senile …
Good evening Father Ariel,
twenty-six years I follow the path is often not hide the fact that in recent years has had many doubts especially about the Eucharist. In recent months I have examined the subject, and I made the decision to leave the way because I feel guilty when I see the countless wickedness that take place in these celebrations. Standing at the consecration, the distribution of Holy Eucharist made by various people without due consideration that the Lord comes to us and the obsessive habit of clapping was for me to become a huge pain that led me not to take communion for the reason that I felt offended me from having to take the unleavened bread on the hands. Regarding the fact that the priests, on the way, They are treated flippantly confirm what she stated in her essay. At Lent ads, Easter and advent and also on other occasions to preach is the so-called super catechist while the priest is limited only to the initial and the final blessing prayer. I'm sure my decision, to leave the way, It will create problems but the Lord will support me.
Pace
If it were all true what you said Don Ariel means that the ability to discern well 5 Popes and the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, over the past 50 year old, is equal to zero!
Naturally, The mere common sense tells us that this can not be true. What then there have been abuses, of any nature, in each case I would not rule it out. As well as the Way doctrinal errors that were, then, corrected by the Church when it approved the Catechetical Directory.
But you can not condemn the Way as a whole and consider it pure evil. Otherwise, you sin of pride, because it considers his ability to discern than that of the Church.
Then, The question to ask is only this: I trust the judgment of the Church on the Neocatechumenal Way?
So far no official document of the Church has judged the Way as a sect, moreover heretical. So, for now they're in the wrong all the detractors of the Way, beginning with Don Ariel!
The discernment of the Church visible in recent 50 years are evident from the news that we read every day, the amount of heretics and perverts who swarm everywhere, to which no one has been able to curb. So this is not an argument.
… but expensive Fabrizio, what it says … But what does?
The old Cardinal Theodor McCarrick, Serial molester unpunished for decades, He has survived intact over several pontificates in virtue of the high and dare I say “infallible” Ecclesiastical Authority's ability to discern!
For this I am amazed how, the threshold of ninety, when dirt was now likely to keep curial carpet raised by one meter off the ground, with as many high and dare say “infallible” ability to discern, was graciously It defrocked a few centimeters from the grave, while at the same time, one of his main pupils, meanwhile already become cardinal, He was appointed Camerlengo of Holy Roman Church.
Please Fabrizio, do not doubt the ability of our Ecclesiastical Authority discernment, indeed beg just not doubt, He may go hence of the eternal salvation of his immortal soul.
dear albert,
my conscience as a priest and my conscience as a theologian force me to scold, once and for all, rebuke for the poor service that she is making to the Neocatechumenal Way, within which – first of all talking in my writing of the mystery of grace – I have not denied, indeed quite the opposite, I explained how it can be an instrument through which many souls to reach salvation. It would be enough just to know what are the ordinary means of salvation, namely the Church and the sacraments of grace, ed i extraordinary means of salvation, which are enclosed in the mystery of God and that God uses it as and when he wants – it goes without saying – without some having to ask permission to us.
The bad and dangerous service that she is making to the Neocatechumenal Way is the fact that, just like a Jehovah's Witness with the rhyme learned by heart, or as a Scientologist “brainwashed”, you claim to be a part of interacting, but when they are posed pointed questions, She followed like a broken record repeating the chant again, "we have been approved … we have been approved … discernment of five Pontiffs … five pontiffs …».
1. I repeat: I have set the precise questions, as you can read, which are based on proven facts and documentable, but to which she does not respond;
2. I explained in my written – the theology of it, not with the stomach with subjective mood and passions – that holiness does not imply perfection of all pastoral actions, the choices and talk of a Supreme Pontiff, This thing that can be confirmed by all the specialists who deal with the causes of saints;
3. The Popes who have had to deal directly with the Neocatechumenal Way are two and only two: John Paul II, who after many years has given him a try to experiment and Benedict XVI, who has finally approved the Statutes duly revised and corrected;
4. these two Popes have repeatedly drawn over the years the Neocatechumenal with their speeches and through the dicasteries of the Holy See, thing I proved with documents and official records of the Holy See that she does not even touch the smear;
5. In the 2012 Benedict XVI made a speech to the Neocatechumenal which is a soft-spoken but firm rebuke from start to finish, and is an official speech published and readable by anyone, including you;
6. the reigning Pontiff recalled the Neocatechumenal several times and on key points of ecclesiology and missionary spirit of the Church, but above all he has made a definite reminder that everyone should be free to leave the Movement, and everything is documented to acts, although her, these facts and acts, Neither did they touch smear.
Nevertheless she followed undeterred with his rhyme, but especially denying response to each kind of question that is addressed, thereby going against the facts, the documents, the acts of the Holy See and the official statements of the Roman Pontiffs, This moved her to act in a spirit of irrationality that leads to misguided attempt to manipulate objective data.
Does, like this, to confirm the spirit humoral, irrational and closed the reasoning that I complain in my writing, instead of defending, how instead she assumed, the Neocatechumenal Way, that his interventions with these and with these its stubborn and unresponsiveness, It does nothing instead of damaging his public image?
So I repeat the question to which she did not respond except to post another comment in which he talks about anything. In my previous response, I asked her:
If you feel up to refute numerous witnesses, including former seminarians and priests who had approached the Way, who they reported that they felt ask the public from mega-catechists if they had never committed adultery or had recourse to masturbation? So he brings himself to reply to all of them that are just liars that make false testimonies to discredit the greatest gift given by the Holy Spirit to the Church, ie the Neocatechumenal?
How do you see, answer this question, It is not that difficult, just replicate: all these, husbands, they could, Former seminarians and priests, They are false liars who lie.
It takes that much?
Sorry Don Ariel,
I am still Luca.
I wanted to ask a question, because your article is copyright, if the mold and I do read commit a crime?
Thank you
Luca
Dear Luca,
the script has its own printable version to be printed and made reading.
Per copyright It means that no one can publish without authorization. It can also be shown without the problem on other sites or blogs, provided it is indicated the link de The Island of Patmos and the author.
Let me explain better: what you can not do is add in any publication without permission, or taking it whole or in part without citing the source and author.
For the rest, the printable version, It is just for the free dissemination.
Thank you Father Ariel.
Five years ago I not even know who they were. Then I began to hear nominate – especially at the time of the first Family Day – and not understand much, by reading both high praise and great critical. Studying gradually I came to understand. This has the advantage of his article fill my last gaps, confirm things that I sensed and summarize all relevant issues in a single document.
Father I thank Ariel for his article.
He does not say new things in the way that I knew I, but what he says and how he says it to me has more value precisely because it told by a priest that, fearless, He says what was said many years ago, and he says having at heart the good of the Christian people.
I am heartened to read in black and white, in Father Ariel pages, declared bluntly in clear and simple language,the lies,the heresies,the misinformation that I have personally lived in the Neocatechumenal Way.
I think it lacks only the word end to this sordid farce that is called the Neocatechumenal Way.
Luca
The essay is unexceptionable and complete answer for anyone who asks how it is that a real sectarian comes as the Neocatechumenal Way may have wedged in the heart of the Catholic Church.
Council to the many friends who in good faith are included in this organization, to watch this space for comments check if even one of the Neocatechumenal catechists, provincial leaders, regional, national, International, presbyters, will answer the arguments tightened Don Ariel and how it will.
In case he does not recover her consciousness no valid answer, even if only partial, We begin to wonder why continues to give credence to spiritual directives and lives of people who can not make it accomplished reason for this undertaking, and they do take other lightly, But asking a personal commitment increasingly onerous and stringent.
I thank Don Ariel for this work, a true work of spiritual mercy.
still attend the Neocatechumenal Way, They are now over 20 years and are nearing its end. I do not know if I'll finish first or end before the Way. Thank you for the work he has done in deepening these abuses that almost all walkers can not understand. From my past experiences in community I can claim to have found an inability total reliance on reason and the study of the Magisterium and the Church's tradition. For instance: for years Kiko and his subordinates have condemned the call upon the Saints as recourse to pay “natural religiosity” kikiana against the doctrine of God sends misfortunes and you have to totally accept the story. In recent years they have promoted “ask thank Carmen which is a holy superior”. These incredible gyrations have already been repeated hundreds of times, and when Kiko die, his heirs will have to be even more skilled in the changes. One last question Don Ariel. Starting from his knowledge of the history of the Church and of the Neocatechumenal Way, What we can expect from the late founder?
Dear Justin,
Kiko Arguello is a self-centered narcissistic personality I say so, I am a priest and a theologian and not a specialist in psychiatric sciences, they say psychiatrists and clinical psychologists, several of whom had to treat even for years, individually or through group family therapy, many people devastated after years outputs from these groups. If I used in my writing terminology psycho-sect and why, before protests or complaints in the unlikely ecclesiastical forum by stakeholders, I would submit to the competent dicastery of the Holy See to account and reason accompanied by an army of psychiatrists and clinical psychologists, documenterebbero several of whom have also sent several times to the various relationships diocesan bishops, most of whom did not even deign to reply, so difficult is the problem to be treated; and this is obviously also documented. In these reports the specialist represented the serious psychological damage found in a number of their patients out of this Movement.
Therefore I said that it is a self-centered narcissistic personality, it is very unlikely that over the years has guaranteed the Arguello and prepared the succession. But this is my hypothesis totally free, precisely because they do not know, if he did it or not. If he had not done, in this case we will see an internal implosion; and finally, the rotten sapling passed to a solid oak, it will be recognized by all the fruits that gave.
Good morning Father Ariel,
I'm an ex-neocatechumenal, I made the journey to 17 years and I'm outside 3. I read your article with great joy. You were clear,synthetic,simple and strong.
You did not beat about the bush and told the simple truth, making names and surnames, no veiled allusions possibility of misunderstanding or. You're risking so much, but I think you're aware of it, these people who have denounced is powerful, devious and mean.
I wanted to make a statement that I think is important, on the Neocatechumenal Catechetical Directory. In 2010 It was approved the "Catechetical Directory" of the Neocatechumenal Way. This document is mentioned in the statutes of the 2002 he was born in 2008. You talk about 12 volumes, I know of 14 volumes that path despite the approval of the Church refuses to publish.
Kiko wants a free hand to extend at will the gnostic path of his pseudo-path-of-faith, like the passage of the Marriage Spiritual you do after 10 years after the end of the road. This does not make any sense because it is not possible to approve and publish a charter to a movement, inside which it refers to a document that is not only the public but which is stretched at will by the founder without Church approval.
Today, with this excuse of the Catechetical Directory approved by the Church, It justifies two of the biggest heresies of the way, which according to the lay catechists of the movement are contained just inside of the Directory: obedience to the lay catechists walk and "tenth" of the gains of catechumens payable to Neocatechumenal Way.
In these volumes that the path refuses to publish, there is the essence of the way that would make clear to all the world of difference between the Church and the way. Furthermore would understand if the journey, today again, propina the old "mamotreto" from which comes the Directory or if inspired by the Executive Board approved in 2010 from the Church.
This thing is important because I'm quite sure that certain heretical expressions and meaningless stemming from old mamotreti were heavily corrected by the congregations of the Church who have examined.
This I think is the real reason why Kiko does not publish the Directory approved. Because the lies have short legs and publishing the Directory approved should correct the entire Neocatechumenal Way, should admit 50 years of lies, which it will never do.
A hug
Dear Luca,
your text is so clear that there is just nothing to add, precisely because he speaks for itself.
I will just answer to one point, Also to hearten you and other people who have variously expressed that these individuals have the “easy complaint”.
Well I reassure people who have shown me love and concern by saying this: in the criminal legal system of the Italian Republic, however, I know that for my previous secular education prior to the priesthood, It does not act like in the current ecclesiastical courts, nor shall it apply, as it happens today in Merciful Church, free will of the most arrogant instead of the now nonexistent Canon Law.
Suing me, eg for libel [ex art. 595 C.P.], would mean first of all put a criminal court dealing with a matter which not only does not contain within itself any element of crime, It does not touch the property of any title the skills of our Judges, who they are not and can not be appointed to define what is heresy and what is Catholic orthodoxy, what is liturgical abuse hugging the sacrilege of the Holy Eucharist – how many times I have said – and what it is not. Therefore, any plaintiffs, risk being sued by me, to say the least perhaps little church and ecclesiastical, reacting with a counter-lawsuit, as they say – or how would that great man of letters de Meo er Patacca the tear Pure li er ass movie.
Maybe some small discomfort could give me through those two or three cardinal or those four or five bishops at their very attached, but even then it is solvable, just remember that both the cardinals to the bishops in question, they do not come from what was once the richest family of Cardinal Merry del Val, but from a very modest family and that several of them have made the seminar with the support of the diocese or of a benefactor, then I would invite them to clarify what are their notes and recognized end balance sheet entities, to see if their deposits and assets do not come by chance from the collections made with blacks bags inside of the Neocatechumenal Way.
It also and especially in this case, the question would be immediately closed, especially considering that the reigning Pontiff began the his pontificate saying "what I would like a poor Church for the poor"
good morning.
I read with interest your article and like other times I have thought that the way in which I was and who I trusted to 30 year old (Now I went out) It has been detrimental to me. My daughter is in junior high yesterday surprised me, not that I ever talked summarized: “I do not know if I want to get into the community, I like living together and be together but I do not know if it's for me that long and put all those prayers”.
It moved me, It summed up the reason, single, leading many to enter and stay on the path: brothers and have also only help in sharing prayer. Why do not you quit, do not fight? Why stay only after you have invested so much burns…
Everything else is rather seen as a “duty” but that many would rather avoid. I do not oppose it if you would have this experience, but I stand by.
She wrote very clearly, however,, It is having been a “convinced” supporter I know that in that state does not count the truth but what we are told is the truth.
The article by Don Ariel has the same idiolect of an anti-Way blog, to put it mildly, guilty of objectivity. Indeed, I find the same derogatory terms and the same linguistic structures used by the participants of that blog, resentful towards the Way. Basically it is the manifesto of that blog!
Previously I had no doubt that Don Ariel was one of the participants of that blog when I read in an article in the history of the "little nun foolish" anti-Council of Trent with whom he had one day a dialectic, which it was also stipulated in the personal experiences of an anonymous commentator on the blog. However, after reading this article I have no doubt: Don Ariel is one of those "Observatory".
And naturally, all this already is enough to disqualify her impressive work. A work extremely biased reports that not even a positive aspect of the Way but considers only the absolute evil.
Well, an ecclesial reality that has been screened and never stop as well 5 pontiffs, it is not possible to not have a positive aspect. As it is not possible that well 5 Popes have sin of "lack of…
I do not even know that blog which is referred to, and I certainly did not study a lifetime to go then, the thresholds 56 year old, plagiarized around the Internet.
If there is a partisan of the worst sectarian stack these is you, who has not read all my work, in which it is explained and reiterated that the grace of God and how you can help, of the Neocatechumenal Way, to accomplish redemptive actions of salvation upon the souls; nor have I doubted the sincerity and good faith of many of his members, even because – as I explained in my writing that she appears not to have his own bed – I am a pastor in charge of souls and a theologian, I'm not a mega-catechist, therefore clear to me has always been the fact that the deep consciousness of man only God can penetrate and read. What this that she should go and explain to the mega-catechists, how can witness authentic armies of people, during public meetings they have publicly investigated and invaded the consciences up to ask repeatedly to husbands or wives if they had ever committed adultery, or young people if they had never masturbated.
Or is perhaps not known that at some point, the leaders of the Way, They did run voice among the mega-catechists who had to avoid ask seminarians and priests who had set out, if they resorted to masturbation? The seminarians and priests who have felt ask these questions in public from mega-catechists, They are also part of the multinational satanic false witnesses?
Will it be asserted that this is a “idiolet” and that all these witnesses, many of which are still upset even after many years for those aggressive invasions of their deepest conscience, make up all of the satanic multinational false witnesses around the world have agreed to discredit the Neocatechumenal Way?
Therefore she has proven to comment, heavy skirting accusations of superficiality to me, what she has not even read. But then it is understandable why, his pen was moved by the Holy Spirit, that exempts from reading, from analyzing and use the same common sense. And this lack of common sense, door sad necessity, the sectarian, never respond to the merits of the issues. Then I do one, unique and simple question:
If you feel up to refute numerous witnesses, including former seminarians and priests who had approached the Way, who they reported that they felt ask the public from mega-catechists if they had never committed adultery or had recourse to masturbation? So he brings himself to reply to all of them that are just liars that make false testimonies to discredit the greatest gift given by the Holy Spirit to the Church, ie the Neocatechumenal?
How do you see, answer this question, It is not that difficult, just replicate: all these, husbands, they could, Former seminarians and priests, They are false liars who lie.
It takes that much?
* * *
P.S.
Following his warning went looking for the blog in question, which in truth I had never read and whose staff do not and never have been part.
And even if as you say, He expressed the same things, what that means? Although the synoptic Gospels report for much of the same things, She therefore believes that, Evangelists, They have copied from each other and finally, in the era of Constantine, about casting lots, They were chosen from among the various tens then present, the Gospels that were more convenient to the Emperor Constantine?
In Christ esteemed brother Ariel,
God will reward you for the good you have done with this "wise" that should be read well in those hallowed halls, but we know, you and us, that what, Unfortunately, It will not happen.
We are two diocesan priests, If we omit the name is not to make "anonymous lions", but why enter into controversy would not help, if not rinvangare old and excruciating pain involving many other people and institutions.
We entered both in the seminary mother of The Redeemer after a run in the Way started 11 e 13 year old. Let's get down to business: that of sex and sexuality, I'm referring to in this response to Alberto, It is a real obsession.
We confirm that you have responded to this classical neocat, I give to, as from others, never expect, answers on the merits, only based attacks punches pulled to the sky.
When we decided to leave the seminary, we had many problems:
1. with the first Way ;
2. with our families both Neocatechumenal;
3. find a diocesan bishop that we uphold it made us a letter of resignation in which only lacked to writing that we were two possessed.
A holy diocesan bishop welcomed us and, after having kept him in the bishop for two months, one evening he called us and asked if I felt, He is having already made three years of seminary (we were starting the IV), to start over the whole training, because we were not trained (exactly as you write and explain!) but deformed. We accepted.
During that summer (June September) the bishop gave us in foster care for an elderly priest who for four months taught us first the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Then the first of October the bishop sent there at the Angelicum in Rome. We were retained to studies by Bishop, who paid from his own pocket with his salary and the donations he received when he made pastoral visits in diocese. We have five years of education, starting from philosophical studies.
Meanwhile, they tried to give us all possible problems, the six species Neocatechumenals groups present in the diocese, who sent letters to Rome to warn that the bishop had taken two seminarians “thrown out” for very serious problems from the workshop mother of The Redeemer. It was not true, we came out of our initiative, no one blinked off, but they, After that we went there, They wrote and put on record a posthumous letter of expulsion (!?).
Our respective parents, instigated by catechists, They sent a letter to the bishop writing to him that he should not make us priests and asked for it to be registered on record.
When we ordered our respective parents were not present, and Bishop, with an exceptionally large, at the end of the homily he told us ... "I remember, your bishop, I'm your father and your mother, and the diocese is your family ".
We confirm the question you addressed this Alberto in reply to his comments, because we, that kind of invasive questions, we feel we are the contact several times and we have heard many times ask couples about their marital fidelity, always in front of everyone.
In private, we'll broader mandate letter signed by both and with all our contact details, you can use, with priestly discretion, from any ecclesiastical authority should in any capacity summon, but what we know that will never happen.
Today we are both pastors for six years, respectively: one of a large parish, one of two averages parishes and chaplain of a chaplaincy, a couple of years ago, Diocesan Vicar General, He called two catechists of the Way who spread among the voice necoatecumenali place … the sacraments celebrated and taught by us were invalid because there was no action of the Holy Spirit that we had denied and rejected years and years before (!?).
We take this opportunity to invite the readers to support The Island of Patmos, as in our small we make ourselves a few years.
Letter signed
After written
The elderly priest, today returned to the Father's House, who taught the Catholic catechism us before we went to Rome to start from scratch all studies to train for the priesthood, he gave us when we were ordered, with his savings, two goblets and four beautiful chasubles each of the various liturgical colors. Always him, earlier, when we made the application to holy orders, He gave us two cassocks, and he told us: “never forget them in the closet!”.
Amen!
Thank you for your witness. And thanks to Father Ariel. What malice and vindictiveness that have had to endure. The retaliation of which you were the victims and also the alienation of your parents remember precisely the systems of totalitarian regimes… And how surprised? The founder of the journey has grown and is just below a dictatorship format… But divine justice exists. If the church hierarchy remains silent and does not move a finger, God in due course will re-establish the truth and justice.
she is an ignorant Emeritus, in all directions … she is a failure as “theologian” and priest, and since, thank God no one row, then tries desperately to get in prominence.
Saint John Paul II has approved us, Like it or not like it, if he faces a reason, great jerk!
Here's proof
During the anti-Catholic Mexican Revolution 1927, preceded in 1917 a constitution in which the clergy were disenfranchised, for the priests had more than one of you kikos passionate. Indeed, before you kill the priests, ferrata with a brush tore his palms, a day on which was engraved the anointing with Sacred Chrism. This was because, those torturers, in their own way they recognized the sanctity of the priest.
His reporting deserves to be clarified and specified, because in this happy Patmos Island John's is intimately related with the truth that will set us free and not manipulation, and in some things you need to be clear:
In this photo [see WHO] You will see the Holy Father John Paul II receiving Marco Pannella and Emma Bonino young; in this other photo [see WHO], You can not see the young Emma Bonino, received by Pope Francis.
Well: satisfied that the Radical Party and the Radical militants, We have used these images to affirm: "The Pope John Paul II approved the Abortion" or "The Pope Francis I has approved euthanasia and gender»?
Of course not, but if you want to explain why this has not happened: because the radicals are serious people.
In addition to her, This video was sent to me in triumphant tones from his other co-sectarian tones more or less equally insulted, Therefore I say to her and to all of them:
1. In the 2002 Pope John Paul II has neither approved nor definitively canonized the Neocatechumenal Way, enough that she - and others like her who sent us this video - first of all understood what it means approval to experiment for five years [see the document of the Holy See: WHO];
2. to try for five years the statutes were approved by the Holy See corrected giving time to the Route to adapt over the years established at all the corrections applied to them, but above all to conform to the liturgical norms of the Church because the Church could not grant the Way liturgies its mainly based on a misperception of the Holy Eucharist;
3. The Holy See has continued, in the years after 2002, to make various and repeated references to the Neocatechumenal who do not conform to the liturgical norms and when the 2005 he was tempted to manipulate a letter of appeal competent dicastery by passing it as an endorsement, Prefect for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments gave an interview to Vatican Radio in order to clarify the contents [see document WHO];
4. In the 2008, under the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI, the statutes are approved definitively after further correction of the Holy See and the Decree is written that are approved because the Founders of the Way "welcomed the changes [Ed by the Holy See] the drafting of the Statute ";
5. in the decree of definitive approval by the Council for the Laity it is written: "Your apostolic action intends to take place in the heart of the Church, in total harmony with her directives and in communion with the particular Churches in which you are going to operate making the most of the fullness of charisms that the Lord has awakened through the initiators of the Way ";
6. In 2012, the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI approves the celebrations planned for the various stages of the Way to celebrate outside the Eucharistic liturgy and are part dell'intinerario provided by the statutes, and in this regard clarifies: "A little while ago I was reading the decree with which they are approved celebrations in the" Catechetical Directory of the Neocatechumenal Way ", that they are not strictly liturgical, but they are part of the itinerary of growth in faith ».
A quel point, that in his speech of 2012, Benedict XVI being aware - because the Holy See is very well informed - that the Neocatechumenal continue to perform liturgical abuses of every kind ever approved by the Church and for which they were called repeatedly; so well informed orally that is followed to give direction and teachings that were taken from the texts of the statutes they are approved to experiment that definitively, the Pope made a speech in which he called the order and respect for liturgical norms of the Church and approved the Statutes of the Way, baste she read that speech WHO.
But, if even then reproachful speech, she reads yet another endorsement, then I riemetto the oars and go further because it would be like trying to convince a Mormon is not true that an angel of God has appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 giving the book of a new revelation.
Therefore, the video that you sent us, in the light of these facts it does not mean anything if you do not repeat with painful obstinacy the clumsy attempt which was made by Kiko Arguello in 2002 to persuade their followers that the Holy See had approved all, and in every way, namely the liturgical and doctrinal oddities that the Way continued with impunity to perpetrate.
Have therefore the seriousness that the Radical Party members, that never strumentalizzerebbero of images in which their two leaders They are portrayed with Popes John Paul II and Francis I, to make believe that the Holy See endorses abortion, euthanasia and gender. What this would not happen because they never - I repeat - the Radicals are serious people.
Thank you for signing revealed for who you katekumen ! You are more than help you who chilimetri ink ! Now bring your catechist what you wrote and then write here what you suggested ! Thanks again !
I completely agree. but so it is useless because they only know how to write on papyrus scrolls to stretch their vanity for a few seconds … I barely read the title.
the Church has approved, so be quiet for once in your life and you do SHARES
This opening words put Ariel's father at the beginning of the answer …
“During the anti-Catholic Mexican Revolution 1927, preceded in 1917 a constitution in which the clergy were disenfranchised, for the priests had more than one of you kikos passionate. Indeed, before you kill the priests, ferrata with a brush tore his palms, a day on which was engraved the anointing with Sacred Chrism. This was because, those torturers, in their own way they recognized the sanctity of the priest”.
… It should make her feel, not honestly tell you what, for reaching out publicly in this way to a fifty old priest, with solid doctrine and exemplary priestly life costumes known and recognized, especially by the many priests who use him for years as a confessor.
For different reasons, but more or less similar, eighteen years ago, I am arriving in the parish at that time I was entrusted by the bishop, first of all, After a month, set to lead seven groups Neocatechumenals in it were the masters.
And you pay attention: They do not emptied at all the parish, but rather, their going away, They returned all the parishioners who because of them were gone, and the church was much more populated than before.
I have known and experienced deeply, in all the worst aspects, the lack of compliance with certain lay catechists towards priests, This way to express themselves and to attack not the classic loose cannon isolated, but unfortunately it is in practice the practice to anyone who would contradict them, including pastors.
… me too, in the years when I was a pastor in a parish of Vomero (Naples) a Neocatechumenal gave me the “asshole” in front of the children catechism in preparation for Confirmation, time has passed but I think you are always healing wounds. Me him out of hand under the permanent deacon, while all the kids were rooting for the pastor saying “give it, give it!”.
Even the father Ariel, It is prudent and appropriate to give the “asshole” only via internet …
Congratulations on your speech very merciful and Christian, besides very well argued !
If these are the fruits of his Way you can do less tranquillamentea.
Congratulations on your speech very merciful and Christian besides well-argued.
If these are the fruits of his Way they can do unless traquillamente.
father ariel,
I read his work crying twice for two different reasons:
1. the first cry, because I relived the pain that I suffered in the Neocatechumenal give us years, suffice it to say that the catechists forced my boyfriend to leave for the Holy Spirit “She had told him that he had a vocation to the priesthood”, his, totally plagiarism, followed a path that was not his, He became a priest five years later, and after a year, when it was “itinerant” he left the priesthood to get in a Pentecostal sect.
2. the second cried: She has given a voice, and did justice, many people who have lived moments, or even really terrible long years.
If when I left the Way I had not met a holy Capuchin friar confessor, I think I would have abandoned the Catholic Church, in part because I was angry, and partly in total crisis of faith.
Know that you are vindictive, although from what he writes, and as it writes, I have the impression that she speak only on evidence, e, those who read it carefully, She understands what she's certainly not a fool who rushes against windmills, if anything, are the mills, attempting to launch, without success, about her.
I promise I will pray for her and for his priestly mission, but in the meantime thank you so much.
Anna from Rome
Courage Anna, Anna Brava. The truth will set you free. Heresy kikiana not survive 2030
Thank you very much for this article, I found true, necessary, and founding, above all, timely clarification of the doctrine of the Church.
I came from far away and do not know anything, the way he intercepted me 20 years and stayed here because of 35 year old, Also making the catechist for over 25, something I now bitterly regret.
I was able to see and experience for yourself the secular dominance, the insignificance of Ministers ordered, the arrogance of the catechists DIY you believe infallibly inspired by the Holy Spirit.
All true.
The Lord then, after so long, It puts me in the heart of the doubt, going from so many situations.
I started to openly highlight various distortions practices but, since in this way it is not permissible because it can not exit the battalion (you called armed, almost the same) without paying the consequences, I had to leave because my life had become impossible in there.
I started reading and to inform me and I found myself in the Church's explanation of my feeling and I thank God that put me doubt the heart.
I pray for my priest, a good man neocatechumenal, oppressed and despised by…
Dear Father Ariel,
thanks for his long and detailed article, behind which he perceives an accurate and long research. May God reward you if you will not do the church hierarchy: she makes a valuable service to the Catholic Church, re-establishing the truth. It does not give account to the insults that have already begun to arrive. Who insults shows 1. Not to have arguments with which to fight back and thus implicitly that everything she says is true and 2. What the so-called journey of faith does not produce Christians, but only arrogant beings, proud and violent. Exactly the opposite of what he preached Jesus Christ.
Thanks again. I will pray that God help her always in his pastoral work.