Medjugorie and the Gospa of the liars: reasonable doubts about the apparitions and self-styled seers

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MEDJUGORJE AND LA LADY DEI BUGIARDI: REASONABLE DOUBTS ABOUT THE APPARITIONS AND THE SEEDICENT SEERS

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«It is not worthy of the" seers " do, as they have done since the early days of the "apparitions", very disturbing pronouncements, that do not correspond to the truth but deceive the faithful " [from the report of Ratko Perić, Vescovo di Mostar-Duvno, May 2017].

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Author
Ariel S. Levi Gualdo

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VIDEO CONFERENCE ON “MEDJUGORJE PHENOMENON”

Channel of Patmos Island

MP3 AUDIO ONLY WITHOUT VIDEO

 

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While knowing that nothing is worth documents and evidence for those who have chosen to slip into fideism and reject any real data; even knowing that the fideist uses the weapon of defense of sophisms and the falsification of facts, at the end of this article I will report a part of S.E's report. Mons. Ratko Perić, Bishop of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, under whose jurisdiction the Parish of St. James of Medjugorje is located. It will be the Bishop himself who will explain how the self-styled seers have lied since the beginning of the story, manipulated the texts and continued to lie over time.

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During two different broadcasts of Straight and Reverse broadcast on Rete4 and conducted by friend Paolo Del Debbio, the journalist Paolo Brosio, who has been wandering around for years talk show to speak of his conversion in my opinion questionable - and I say questionable because a conversion produces faith, it does not throw the pseudo converted into emotional fideism, in fanaticism and in business [see previous article, WHO] ―, repeatedly pressed by me he came to the end to declare that the then Bishop of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, S. AND. Mons. Pavao Žanić, he was a man colluded with the secret services of the old communist regime of the former Yugoslavia [episode of 5 March WHO by the minute 02:09:45]. These slanders pronounced in that television context by a subject who presumes to defend the authenticity of alleged apparitions of the Madonna from bishops and priests who dare to be doubtful about the authenticity of this complex and at times disturbing phenomenon, have already been previously published by Paolo Brosio in one of his books by 2011, thanks to the lying complicity of the pseudo seer Marija Pavlović. Soon after, il Brosio e la Pavlovic, they were promptly denied by the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno [see text in Italian, WHO].

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After the transmission of the 5 March, Bosnian confreres who have been following our magazine for years, two of which consecrated priests by the late Bishop infamous by Paolo Brosio, they asked me to defend the memory of this "authentic and holy man of God, deeply devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary, faithful servant of the Church and truth ". So they sent me rich documents on the now unmanageable case of Medjugorje, in which it is proved how the self-styled seers lied immediately and several times. After this introduction of a mostly historical nature, I will leave the floor to S.E. Mons. Ratko Perić, of which I have reported the final part of a recent report dating back to 2017.

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Who reads me and knows my writings, you know how severe I have been towards the ecclesiastical authorities, not hesitating to accuse them if necessary of an unknown spirit, in some circumstances even cowardice. But it, in light of this story, the facts and tragic historical events lead me to say that the Church, with the case of Medjugorje, found herself managing the unmanageable. So not only that, has some justification, because of reasonable justifications it has many. However, these are justifications from 2001 they have now lapsed, as we will now try to summarize with some "pills" of Balkan history ...

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... in that Balkan region there have always been serious problems among the Franciscan Friars Minor, the diocesan bishops and the secular clergy of the place; problems that have their roots back in history. Without going into this speech that would require a separate historical treatment, suffice it to say that the Franciscan Friars Minor of that region, not only have they repeatedly rebelled against bishops and their religious superiors, because, when the Holy See intervened on several occasions, they did not hesitate to reiterate their rebellion. So that, on several occasions, the Holy See was forced to impose excommunications and to "reduce to lay state" various obstinate religious in their disobedience. Last in series order to be excommunicated for heresy and schism and then discharged from the clerical state in 2012, it was the Franciscan Friar Minor Tomislav Vlašić, that from 1981 to the 1984 he was deputy parish priest of the parish of Saint James of Medjugorje, exerting a strong influence on the then young self-styled seers. Several times the Madam, in the messages given during the alleged apparitions, would have supported and blessed the work of this religious in opposition to the Bishop of the Diocese, magnifying its quality and endow it through the pseudo seer Marija Pavlović. One thing is undoubted: today it remains to be clarified how, the authentic Blessed Virgin Mary, he could have supported and supported the work of a Franciscan priest who has been guilty of various crimes: from disobedience to the manipulation of people, from violation of the vow of chastity to economic trafficking in violation of the vow of poverty.

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This difficult management situation it is part of a socio-political structure that to call terrible is an understatement. Indeed, the alleged apparitions of the Madonna, call in local language Madam, they begin in June 1981, under the communist regime of Yugoslavia, just a year after Josif Broz's death, known as Marshal Tito. Any kind of intervention by the Holy See on an internal issue in that country, although of a purely religious nature, it could have created tensions with possible completely unpredictable implications, which could have been used as a pretext by the regime, with who knows what implications and consequences. In the years that followed, the different ethnic groups of that geographical area, kept for long years at bay by the iron fist of Marshal Tito under a communist dictatorship, after his death they began to start a growing ferment, reaching the climax of the tragedy between the 1991 and 2001 with the bloody Balkan war.

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We remind those who lacked historical memory that the atrocities consumed in those territories were so heinous that, The press and international televisions were unable to document images of violence as unheard of as gruesome with photos and videos. That of former Yugoslavia soon assumed the characteristics of a war of "ethnic cleansing" with the mass extermination of civilians, regardless of women, Children and the elderly. The violence was almost always characterized by a hatred that induced the torturers to torture and torture the victims with cruel sadism. First under a communist regime heading towards gradual collapse, then with the outbreak of a fratricidal war in the decade that followed, how could the Church ever have intervened on the Medjugorje phenomenon?

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... and so it was from the beginning of the phenomenon when the Church could begin to study it to try in some way to intervene, Twenty years had passed, while the pseudo seers spread the messages received from the apparitions of the Madam, that from the beginning of the event to today it is estimated that they have been around 40.000.

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In 2001, the Balkan war ended, the Holy See did not bother to intervene, while the phenomenon assumed ever greater proportions and by now involving millions of faithful scattered around the world. This is also thanks to the very questionable work of Radio Maria that, in the omissive neglect of the Ecclesiastical Authority, for years it had already presented the phenomenon as authentic through the voice of Father Livio Fanzaga, that not only spread the messages of Madam, much worse: he used them - and still uses them - as material for catechesis. Thus, without the Church uttering even a faint moan, Father Livio Fanzaga, from the microphones of a Catholic station followed by millions of listeners, it spread the cult of an entirely new religion: the religion gentlemen-medjugoriana. Only in 2010, I spent almost thirty years, a phenomenon now out of control, the mild Pontiff Benedict XVI decided to commission a study commission, entrusting the presidency to Cardinal Camillo Ruini.

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After four years of work, in 2014 the Commission delivers its final written report in compromise style newspeak the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which in response breaks it to pieces, not failing to complain that the text is "approximate and accommodating", not free from "inaccuracies", but above all that he did not take into account the "complex history of those territories" and "the opinion of the local bishops". Before that against relationship, the Supreme Pontiff is certainly in a situation of evident embarrassment. And perhaps not wanting to blame the Commission of Cardinal Camillo Ruini and reason to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith or vice versa, instructs a third commission formed by trusted theologians to examine the report of the Commission and the counter-report of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that had literally destroyed it. In this way the Supreme Pontiff tries to save the incomplete work directed by Cardinal Camillo Ruini and at the same time save that of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, of his prefect and of the scholars who had examined and then rejected the report of this Commission. And so, saved as the saying goes goat and cabbage, the Supreme Pontiff, ten years have passed since the assignment given by his Supreme Predecessor to a Study Commission, it has been careful not to give any official answer about the authenticity or not of the Medjugorje phenomenon. These are the proven and documented facts, all the rest are only interpretations or free talk.

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Having illustrated everything, let me now pass on a pertinent example: if I had been the prefect of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith, before the Supreme Pontiff who after the opinion of the competent dicastery presided over by me, had appointed a group of theologians of his trust to verify if by chance he had not exaggerated in giving such an opinion to the work of that Study Commission, in response I would have resigned from office, not failing to say to the Supreme Pontiff: “If Your Holiness believes that the opinions of this Congregation called until recently the supreme, must be examined and judged by others, I have no reason to stay in my place, but above all it is this same dicastery that has no more reason for existing. Therefore begging your Apostolic Blessing, I give you my resignation letter”… Simply said,: the Church is now in total disrepair precisely because there are no more men in prominent places who reason and who act decisively and virile in this way.

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The "compromising" and "accommodating" element typical of a subject navigated in politics such as Cardinal Camillo Ruini, was to speculate that the first seven apparitions might be true, however, not all subsequent and related data messages. Needless to say: such a political compromise choice, in a matter of doctrine and faith that so delicately invests the sphere of Mariology, not only is he unhappy, because it seems above all to take into account only from 1981 to follow, all the Bishops of that ecclesiastical region had always expressed themselves, decisively and unanimously, against the supernaturality of the event, documenting that the self-styled seers had repeatedly lied from the beginning. And by Cardinal Camillo Ruini, of the bishops who knew the communist regime, who were often subjected to hours of humiliating interrogations and threats in police posts, who lived through the war, who risked their lives and saw their people exterminated like slaughter, they would have deserved all the respect due to authentic witnesses of the faith.

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When the Commission's file presided over by Cardinal Camillo Ruini it was published years later in 2019 by two journalists, Saverio Gaeta and David Murgia, the ones that in a completely improper way I have renamed as i fanatic Medjugoriani, they began to extrapolate what was never written in that text, for example by spreading the false news that the Church approved the first seven apparitions; absolutely false news, but considered by them absolutely authentic.

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Uselessly, with my articulated writings published on social media I tried to deny everything, clarifying that the report of a study commission is not an official act of recognition and that the Church has never pronounced on the authenticity of the apparitions. I also explained that the much magnified and numerous conversions that took place there, considered by many to be an irrefutable proof of the authenticity of the phenomenon, they are not proof of anything, because it has always, God's grace, to recover a soul he can use the most unthinkable situations and places, even of places where the worst sins are committed. So imagine if the grace of God, to recover lost souls, it does not use a place like Medjugorje, where many people go sincere and devoted to pray. In fact, it is not necessary to start from the authenticity of specific events, because the manifestation of the divine through the apparitions is by no means a necessary requirement, nor much less required, to cultivate a true and authentic Marian devotion. And yet, to fanatic medjugoriani, one cannot really understand these elementary data, which are not related to vague opinions of myself or of other priests and theologians, but which constitute the real fundamental pillars of the deposit of our faith.

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My reasonable explanations based on historical criteria, theological and logical, certainly not about aversions towards Medjugorje, that I don't have, they soon clashed with large numbers of people who responded with assaults and insults, blind to every call and invitation to reasonableness. All this led me to touch another tragic reality: around the phenomenon of Medjugorje there is also a form of fanatic fideism that involves a large number of people, which do not at all represent small and isolated groups, or so called “almost limit”, but unfortunately they represent large groups of people. Many of these people lack the perception of the basic elements of the Catholic faith, because the Medjugorje phenomenon, in them it does not produce faith but fideism, it does not produce devotion but fanatic devotionism which becomes even insolent, insulting and aggressive towards anyone who dares to question their idol to certain people. This without detracting from the fact that, as it was specified from the beginning and as I repeat again: many people visiting Medjugorje converted and changed their lives, all through the grace of God, not for the authenticity of the apparitions and the banal and repetitive messages given for three decades by Madam. Messages defined as "banal and repetitive" by the Commission itself chaired by Cardinal Camillo Ruini who, beyond the "accommodating style" adopted, could not fail to underwrite three basic data: the banality of the messages, the ambiguous relationship with money by the alleged seers, their poor spiritual formation and their search for protagonism. The Commission ahe also warns that some of the pseudo-seers have also lied several times, in particular he indicates one that he defines as "the least reliable". Obviously none of these contents detract from the slightest i fanatic medjugoriani, for which there is only one data: "The Church recognized the first seven apparitions". But as I repeat, it is an absolutely false fact: first, because an advisory commission has no power to recognize the supernaturality of the event in any way; second, because the Church has never issued any pronouncements to date.

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The fanatic medjugoriani they live on rumors, of hearsay and authentic legends that thanks to social media are spread by many sites and blogs created mostly by people who speculate on the phenomenon of Medjugorje also at a financial level. These people, of practices that are always very ignorant of doctrine and faith, but precisely for this reason they are particularly arrogant and aggressive, to the gullible for whom reasoning seems to constitute an unnecessary effort which can be done without, they usually pass off legends about the devotion of the Holy Pontiff John Paul II, or the fact that he had even said to "approve the phenomenon" and "have no doubts about the authenticity of the apparitions" (!?). However, these are genuine falsehoods, although unfortunately, attempt any kind of reasoning or invite certain people to the critical and analytical sense, it will always result in lost time. It would be enough to ask: if like them they falsely spread around, the Holy Pontiff had believed and even approved this phenomenon as authentic, because he has never officially defined him as such in twenty-six years of pontificate? But also to this i fanatic medjugoriani they provide an answer by stating: "The Church never pronounced because the phenomenon of apparitions is always going on". What about: blissful historical ignorance! Of course, if the Church has pronounced several times and above all in a negative way, in the face of phenomena always in progress, crushing them if necessary from birth, preventing them from moving forward and developing to the point of causing serious deception and damage to the faithful. Anyhow, if according to legend the Holy Pontiff John Paul II was "convinced of the authenticity of the apparitions", because his successor never commissioned a study commission that has come to nothing, that we saw the whole work dismantled by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, while the Successor's Successor commissioned a third commission, finished the work of which the Church has not expressed any pronouncement on the authenticity of the phenomenon of Medjugorje?

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A short example to illustrate the extent of the serious problem: for daring to talk about the Medjugorje phenomenon, I have been overwhelmed by hundreds of insulting messages written by people who as well, in front of me, I don't say they would never hold a public theological confrontation, but they would not even manage to emerge unscathed from a discourse based on the foundations of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. When for good pastoral heart and to offer corrections I tried to answer, the replies received were of an unheard of insolence: emeritus and profound ignorant on the most basic bases of Catholic doctrine, they invited me to study and not to say nonsense. A quel point, both in my quality of priest and in my quality of theologian, I had to take note that it was not possible to dialogue with poor people who falsify historical data, that extrapolate from the documents of the Church or from the speeches of the Supreme Pontiffs a phrase that they then manipulate to make the Church and the Supreme Pontiff say what they have never said, affirmed and recognized. But above all, I have nothing to answer to the kind of people who earn money by organizing pilgrimages to Medjugorje or by selling rambling and ungrammatical devotional booklets they have written and published. How could one discuss and respond to people who, on the basis of gratuitous slanders, do not hesitate to tarnish the memory of men like the venerable Bishop Pavao Žanić, to defend their idol? And how many they are, between them, those who boast amazing conversions and narrate extraordinary miracles, they built their own economy by selling santini & dreams on the mirage of Medjugorje? [example: WHO].

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Always on that television program of 5 March, to Paolo Brosio I remembered the figure of the very tender Maria Goretti, died just a teenager in the 1902 for an attempted rape, pronouncing with his last yearning for life words of forgiveness for his murderer, Alessandro Serenelli, which yes, who later converted seriously! And with the elderly mother she was present at the ceremony in San Pietro when Blessed Maria Goretti was canonized in 1950. But it, Mamma Assunta, poor peasant woman from the Agro Pontino era, from such he lived and such he died, so much so that at his death he provided the Church for his burial. And today, Mamma Assunta and Alessandro Serenelli, they are buried in the building of the same church: the mother of the Saint and the repentant murderer, converted and redeemed. Question: it is possible that the self-styled seers of Medjugorje, who for almost four decades would have daily apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, they find nothing better to do than to open hotels and lead lives based on luxury? I admit with deep regret that in the face of all this I find it truly distressing that the Holy See followed undaunted not to pronounce on the authenticity or otherwise of the phenomenon, almost as if we had never received a mandate from Christ God to guard and protect his flock, first of all by false prophets and bad teachers.

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Except for sincere people, devoted and in good faith which I have already dutifully mentioned several times, including those who go grateful to Medjugorje every year to pray, because visiting one day that place they then returned to the faith and within the Church, you want to know from whom the great hard core of those whom I have not appropriately indicated as faithful is made up, but how fanatic medjugoriani? The big part - and I repeat the big part, not sporadic or borderline cases - unfortunately it is made up of people looking for tangible sensationalism; it is made up of people who until yesterday used to go to the fortune teller to have their tarot read, or who were fooled by tele-barkers. And these people - which I repeat are many - have only changed their object, passing with the exact same superstitious magical spirit from the fortune teller to the Madonna of Medjugorj.

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Such a fact, perhaps someone intends to hide it under the pitiful cover of the … popular belief of the simple? Let's not joke. The popular faith of the simple, it is completely different. The popular faith of the simple, souls always loved by God and creatures privileged by the Blessed Virgin Mary, it is that of the Mexican Indian Juan Diego who goes to the Bishop with the tilma on which the image of the Guadalupe's Virgin, it is that of Saint Bernadette, that of the tender shepherd children of Fatima, but certainly not that of the hoteliers seers bivouacking between villas, luxury car and good life, carrying out as a profession that of making the most worn-out Madonna in the entire history of the Church appear around the world.

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Another proof brought as irrefutable: priestly vocations. And on this speech yes, that a serious and thorough investigation should be launched, because it is known and well known that numerous so-called Medjugorian priests, they were also very problematic in terms of faith and doctrine, because we came to the priesthood in the wake of fragile emotions. Not a few bishops later found themselves having to fight exalted and unmanageable priests who put forward the Madonna of Medjugorje and then later, in the background, the Holy Trinity, but always in total function of Madam. Statistically, the abandonment of the priesthood by these "Medjugorean priests" has always been very high, some of which also ended up in charismatic sects and Pentecostal Protestant groups. Not to mention the new realities of religious life founded on “charism of Medjugorje”, because the bishops of the various Italian dioceses who then found themselves having to fight with certain subjects and with not a few damages they brought within their dioceses, they could have a lot to tell and above all a lot to document, starting from those of several suburbicarian dioceses of Rome.

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Unfortunately sad reality, is that after the work of a first commission, after the counter-report of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, after the Supreme Pontiff against any form of clericalism commissioned a third study group, giving as just explained a solemn slap to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Church to the test, now on the threshold of 2021, date that will mark the fortieth year from the beginning of the alleged apparitions, it has never and in no way pronounced itself. And we priests, than the so-called Church field hospital we are the emergency room workers, we don't really know what to answer, every time people ask us about the authenticity of the Medjugorje phenomenon, while at the same time we risk being made the object of the worst defects by those faithful who, convinced instead of absolute authenticity, a prete “critic” towards this phenomenon, well that goes go the war trying to turn against him as many people as possible, after stamping it: “enemy of the Madonna”.

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In my humble opinion, I think I can say that the Church today, in this moment of deep crisis and decline that passes through it, it will never even pronounce, leaving us in trouble, emergency first aid workers from Church field hospital. Certain, the Supreme Pontiff, known and severe flogger of clericalism, one would ask: the clerical Church, it is the one that gives clear and precise answers, if necessary without fear of unpopularity and mass protests, or that which does not assume its responsibilities and which always remains suspended between saying and not saying, in vain attempt, indeed quite impossible, to please everyone and not to please anyone at the end?

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Only the Supreme Pontiff Francis I, with clear and decisive words, could explain to us what he means, when he complains about the scourge of clericalism, because unfortunately, we who are not clerical, perhaps wrongly, or perhaps because they are not sufficiently wise, from the stench of the worst wave clericalism, ambiguous, easygoing and fearful, sometimes we feel really submerged. It's surely, the Supreme Pontiff, by his special state grace, having received from Christ God sent as his vicar to earth, it could explain in a masterly way to all of us that clericalism is never wisdom and prudence, less than ever cunning by low-ranking politicians. Clericalism, it's clericalism and that's it, based as such on the total lack of assumptions of responsibility that always leave others with rigor, but above all the whole Church, in very serious trouble. They leave us priests in trouble, to which people ask, in the emergency room of the Church field hospital, of the answers that we cannot give, because only the wicked priests, poorly formed and especially self-centered, heedless of all the basic laws that regulate the life of the Church, they can take the very serious responsibility of issuing their own staff Motu Proprio and declare the phenomenon of Medjugorje authentic; phenomenon that never the Church, until today, declared and defined it, leaving for this reason, all of us, in serious and deep trouble.

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From the island of Patmos, 20 April 2020

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Ratko Perić

Vescovo di Mostar-Duvno

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[…] Il Vescovo Pavao Zanic [N.d.R 1918 – 2000, predecessor of the Bishop author of this report] he inherited the "Herzegovinian case" both as coadjutor and as ordinary of Mostar-Duvno. Having the utmost confidence in the decisions and decrees of the Holy See, he tried to resolve the tangled case in order to consecrate himself to other enterprises in pastoral life. Therefore, assuming the government of the Diocese, faithful to the Successor of Peter, he insisted on the Apostolic See that the said decrees were actually implemented in Herzegovina. St. John Paul II showed this understanding of the situation presented by Bishop Žanić who put his authority into play by authorizing the Congregation for Religious to dismiss from the Order of Friars Minor those who did not obey the dispositions of religious superiors and the Holy See, without granting him the possibility of appeal to the ecclesiastical court.

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In the ranks of the Franciscan fathers, in particular the aforementioned two chaplains of Mostar, they were disobedient to ecclesiastical decisions. From the beginning they hindered the pastoral life of the new parish of the Cathedral of Mostar. It is here that the voice of the "appearance" of Medjugorje intruded in an unusual way, attacking Bishop Žanić, faithful servant of the Holy See, and protecting the disobedience of the two chaplains of Mostar.

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The 24 June 1981 the story of the Medjugorje phenomenon begins, in the village of Bijakovići, parish of Medjugorje, where a group of four girls was formed: Vicka and Ivanka Ivankovic, Mirjana Dragicevic e Marija Pavlovic - e due ragazzi: Ivan Dragicevic and Jakov Colo, among the 10 and the 16 years - who claimed to have apparitions of Our Lady every day. The parish priest of Medjugorje was Friar Jozo Zovko, O.F.M, the parish vicar Friar Zrinko Čuvalo, O.F.M. So began the “Medjugorje phenomenon”.[17]

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Among the first "messages" of the apparitions there was also what immediately proved the disobedience of those involved, and from December of that year the “appeared” openly sided with the disobedient and against Msgr. Žanić, diocesan bishop, competent authority of the Church.

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1the – Immediately at the beginning of the "apparitions" - wrote Msgr. Žanić to the Vice President of the Episcopal Conference of Yugoslavia - «Fra Nikola Radić, general delegate of the Order of Friars Minor for Herzegovina, he told me a few days after the apparitions in Medjugorje began: “A friar came to Široki Brijeg, and says that Our Lady appeared in Medjugorje, and said that the friars are right!"The friars who defend Medjugorje have transformed it in defense of their disobedience against the Bishop and against the Holy See, and in defense of their material interests ". [18]

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Nonetheless and despite various other oddities, deception and manipulation, Bishop Žanić was opened, in the first few months, to the alleged "apparitions", always cautious about the subjectivity or supernaturality of the "apparitions". but when, the "appeared", called "Our Lady of Medjugorje", he began to blame the Bishop himself, who was a Marian not any more, he took the position of blatant negator of the authenticity of the "apparitions". We follow the chronological process of the attacks of the "appearance" of Medjugorje against the Bishop:

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2the – the 19 December 1981 the "seer" Vicka in his Agenda [19] he noted:

«I asked about the Herzegovinian problem, in particular as regards Fra Ivica Vego. Gospa said that the most culprit for these disorders is Bishop Žanić, of Fra Ivica Vego said that he is not guilty, but the Bishop has all the power. He said to him [N.d.R. Madonna] to stay in Mostar and not to leave ». And, always under the same date, Tomislav Vlasic, in Chronicle of the parish of Medjugorje,[20] he asked “clairvoyant” Vicka and noted:

«Literally what Our Lady said? He said the bishop is guilty of the unrest in the diocese, or that in the last cases (lie down a Ivica [Vego] e Ivan [Prusina]) makes bad moves? Vicka replied that Our Lady said that the bishop made the wrong moves, but that cannot literally repeat it ". Vicka, attentive to the distinction of Father Vlašić, adapts to the phrase as Father Vlašić suggests it. He hears it from the "Madonna", although I cannot "repeat it literally"!

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3the - the 3 January 1982, nell’Agenda of Vicka we read: «The bishop does not put order and therefore he is guilty. He will not be a bishop forever. I will show justice in the kingdom ". The "Madonna" thus threatens the diocesan Bishop through his "seer". Under the same date, in chronicle di Padre Vlasic, O.F.M, it is written: «The young people had the vision. The most important thing is what aroused the interest of the Bishop. Indeed, at my suggestion, to verify the authenticity of the response of the Madonna del 19 December 1981 about the chaplain, I asked the visionaries to ask again about it ".

Answers of the visionaries:

  1. «Our Mother has sent a message to the dear Bishop saying that he has been a while’ precipitous in his decision and that we must once again reconsider and listen to both sides. […]. The Bishop makes disorder and therefore he is guilty. He will not always be the Bishop, I will show justice in the Kingdom ".

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4the – January 11 1982 we read in Chronicle of the parish: “They asked again about the two chaplains of Mostar, and Our Lady repeated twice what she had said before ". And therefore also what he said about the Bishop.

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5the – 14 January 1982 the “clairvoyant” Vicka expressly lies to Bishop Žanić. In Supplement to “Information” of the official Bulletin of the Dioceses, Bishop Žanić, after the interview with i “fortune tellers”, recorded on tape, writes: "The day 14 January 1982 the boys came to me, they said that Our Lady sent them (Vicka I., Marija P., e Jakov Br.). (…) Our Lady said that you have been precipitous in certain things. This said. (…)

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Says the Bishop:

"Someone told me that you had some message for the chaplains of Mostar".

The "seers" respond:

«We didn't have any».

exclaim:

"No?»

Then I ask:

«What chaplains?»

The "seers" respond:

«Those of Mostar».

I add:

"There was nothing".

Answer:

"Someone will have told me wrongly".

They argue,:

"Someone wrongly sends it to you and you hear it wrongly".

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Bishop Žanić continues to document in his memory: “In the course of the conversation I asked the boys a few more times: "There is still something for the Bishop?… Remember something about me again "... Their response was negative».[21]

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6the – 20 January 1982, by 'Agendto on Vicka: «Madonna, what will happen with the Bishop? He, will change his attitude? Our Lady replied: “I don't want to hurry. I wait to see if he will yield following my messages sent to him through you "». According to chronicle, on the same date, the "Madonna" however declares that: «The Bishop was hasty in the decision».

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7the – 3 April 1982, Bishop Žanić publishes what has been recorded on tape: "The day 3 April 1982 Vicka I came to me. e Jakov Br., sent by the Madonna. Viking Afferma:

"Our Lady scolded us because we didn't say everything last time ... She talked about this case and smiled saying that she would have pacified everything by herself ... I have no idea what it is ... and she smiled. (…)».

I ask:

«Because you didn't say the names of those friars who want to hunt?».

Replica Vicka:

«She said of those friars that they too like to work in the Church like everyone else, celebrate mass, priests are not at all guilty, she also said their names, and I didn't know them and I saw them later ... Prusina and Vego. She says they are not at all guilty, twice he repeated it. Jakov also heard it, Marija was there too ".

I ask:

'He told you this about them before you came to me last time (the 14 January 1982), and scolded you for not telling me?».

Vicka replies:

"Yup. So she scolded me three times because I didn't come and I didn't say ... ".

But I'd argue:

"Again we didn't understand each other (I insist that the contradiction with the answer be perceived well 14 January 1982). Our Lady told you to tell me before you came to me last time?»

Vicka replies:

"Yup. But I didn't say it, and she scolded me for not doing what I had to do, and I talked a lot, but I couldn't remember ... Then she [Madonna] he said: I think this is a great shame to forget, this quarrel between the friars and the priests. People calm down, but there is nothing for them to do…»

Afferma Jacob:

«She said that this is a great blow for the Church».

Afferma Vicka:

"Every day she tells us something ... even she says that she has not proceeded rightly".

Afferma Jacob:

«That you were wrong too, since he did it ".

Afferma Vicka:

«That there are certain mistakes, and what do I know ... »

Ask the bishop:

"In what?».

Vicka replies:

«In this Franciscan case».

The Bishop asks:

"What mistake do you think I made?».

Risponde Jacob:

«She refers to something in the Franciscan case between the friars and priests».

The Bishop asks:

«And you know what it is?

Risponde Jacob:

"I do not know".

The Bishop replies:

«I would like to correct myself if I knew what I did wrong, but I obey the Pope, and what the Pope commands I do it ".

Vicka replies:

«You too must obey someone, but I would obey the Madonna more than my mother ... of course I would prefer to obey the Madonna than the Pope, of course!»

The bishop replies:

«Our Lady cannot speak against the Pope ... You must also be careful and have doubts if she says something against the Bishop».

Vicka replies:

"There is no doubt. I feel it just as I feel it now (recorded to a tape recorder)».

.

***

.

Then Bishop Žanić continues: "When I communicated it to Fra Tomislav Vlašić, who works pastorally in Medjugorje, he told me that Vicka is quite impulsive, precipitous ... [and added]: “Between Christmas and New Year she told me that Our Lady had told her that the Bishop is guilty of everything in Herzegovina. I told her it can't be like that ... "I told him: “You didn't have to say anything, but only send it to the Bishop. This is a manipulation of the boys ... ".[22] [the Bishop said to Father Vlašić].

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Such lies of the "seers" and these manipulations of the manipulator Vlašić were clear evidence for Bishop Žanić so as to induce him to take a resolute stance on the non-authenticity and the lies of the Medjugorje phenomenon.

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8the – 15 April 1982, on the Agenda of 1983 we find the expressions of the "Madonna", written by Vicka with her own fist: «The bishop is guilty here and there are many who support him».[23] in chronicle missing the date of 15 April 1982, it was not delivered to the Curia.

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9the – 26 April 1982, in’Agenda of Vicka we read: "The bishop - he says [Madonna"] - he has no true love of God for the two of them ", «What the Bishop does is not according to the will of God», «The Bishop does not do according to the grace of God». in chronicle missing the date of 26 April 1982.

.

10the – 27 June 1982, lto chronicle reports: "To the question: The Bishop objects that you said that Fra Ivica Vego and Fra Ivan Prusina are not guilty. He feels it as if you were not the real Madonna because you do not respect the dispositions of the superiors. You want to explain your attitude to us? He answered: “We must respect and obey the superiors. But they too make mistakes; they must repent and correct them. Bishop, and even more those who give him suggestions, with their attitude they damage the faith ... "».

.

An unclear role in this whole affair it was that of the Slovenian Jesuit father Radogost Grafenauer,[24] mentioned by Bishop Žanić in his report: «Towards the end of January 1983 venne that Padre Joy Joy Grafenauer, S.J., with the intention of investigating the Medjugorje phenomenon. He listened to about twenty tapes recorded and decided not to go to Medjugorje stating "since there is no Madonna there". At my suggestion he went there and after a few days he returned as a "convert" of Father Vlašić. He brought me some pages of the text, he threw them on the table and said:

"Here, Bishop, what Our Lady tells you ».[25]

.

We now report from that report the conversation between Father Grafenauer and the "seer" Vicka Ivanković.

Padre Grafenaur:

«You told the Bishop that he is to blame and that those two [Vego and Prusina] they are innocent and can exercise their priestly duties?

Vicka:

"Yup".
Padre Grafenaur:

«They can hear confessions? Our Lady spoke about it?»

Vicka:

"Yup".

Padre Grafenaur:

«If Our Lady says this and the Pope says that they cannot ...»

Vicka:

«The Pope can say what he wants: I say things as they are ".[26]

.

We now report from that report the conversation between Father Grafenauer and the "seer" Vicka Ivanković:

Padre Grafenaur:

«Our Lady said that the Bishop is guilty?»

Mary:

"Yup".

Padre Grafenaur:

«As soon as Our Lady says that the Bishop is guilty, one immediately begins to doubt that it is the Madonna ... That is, the fact that the visionaries are saying that the Bishop is guilty ... »

Mary:

«This has been said to us by Our Lady».

Padre Grafenaur:

«This provokes revolt in Hercegovina and these are not good fruits. People will get angry at the Bishop and will defame him; how Our Lady can do such a thing? The Church knows that Our Lady is good and that she would not do such a thing ».

Mary:

«Our Lady said so to us».[27]

.

***

.

Conclusion. From these points elaborated on the basis of the literal words of the young people who present themselves up to now as "seers" of the same "Madonna", and from those of their "spiritual guide", it appears that the "appearance" of Medjugorje attacked a strenuous announcer of the truth about the Mother of God and, instead, he defended various forms of disobedience and immorality. Indeed he continued to do so until 1985 (The end of August 1982, the 29 September 1982, the 17 January 1984, the 14 November 1984, the 5 January 1985).

.

Bishop Žanić showed up for his 23 years of episcopate as a man of full moral integrity, listened to preacher of truth, tireless administrator of the holy sacraments and courageous pastor, ready to die for the truth and for his flock.

.

It is not worthy of the Madonna to be used as “post office manager” to answer a series of inappropriate and manipulated questions from “fortune tellers” and their "spiritual guide" with regards to “Herzegovinian case” of centennial duration.

.

It does not honor Our Lady present it as a manipulator, with his holy person, aimed at interfering in the ordinary government of the Holy See and the diocesan bishop of Mostar-Duvno, regarding the jurisdiction of the pastoral activity of priests.

.

It is not worthy of Vicka rearrange his diary, writing his fanciful experiences of 1981 and the first half of 1982 nell’Agenda of 1983.

.

It is not worthy of the "seers" do, as they have done since the early days of the "apparitions", very disturbing pronouncements, that do not correspond to the truth but deceive the faithful.

Mostar, 2 May 2017

+ Ratko Perić, bishop

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OFFICIAL SOURCES AND DOCUMENTS:

[1] Pavao Žanić, free design, 1959-1982: the papal appointment was the 9 December, communication to Don Pavao Žanić on 28 December 1970, the publication on 4 January 1971.

[2] Tomo Vukšić (edited), The truth is liberating. Proceedings of Bishop Pavel Zanic [The truth sets us free. Miscellany of Bishop Pavao Žanić], Mostar, 1992.

[3] Ilija Drmić, "Silver Bishop Jubilee" (The Bishop of the silvery jubilee), in: Church on stone, No.. 5/1996, pp. 5 and 12.

[4] T. Vuksic, on. CIT., pp. 35-40. Translation of the Latin text of the Supreme Pontiff: "As we know, the anguish of the situations and the difficulties of your pastoral ministry have made the burden even more immature, but you never lacked intrepid faith, on the contrary, your love for all has grown greatly, an exemplary devotion and Your diligence in the choice and education of those called to the service of the Lord ».

[5] Crucified Church in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Destruction of Catholic Sacred Objects in Bosnia and Herzegovina [The crucified Church in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The destruction of Catholic religious buildings in Bosnia and Herzegovina], Banja Luka, Sarajevo, Mostar, Zagreb, 1997, p. 208.

[6] See. http://md-tm.ba/clanci/le-apparizioni-dei-primi-sette-giorni-medugorje

[7] See. http://www.md-tm.ba/clanci/il-dodicesimo-anniversario-della-morte-del-ve…

[8] According to Vicka's diary (III), in data 28 February 1982, the "Madonna" said to the "seers": "You can thank Tomislav very much for guiding you so well", the copy at the diocesan Curia of Mostar.

[9] P. Žanić, The current position (unofficial) of the Episcopal Curia of Mostar regarding the events of Medjugorje, 30 October 1984, No.. 22.

[10] In 2012 Tomislav Vlasic, after the reduction to the lay state, announced to be part of a group, called "Central Core", of 49 beings chosen by God in the universe, together with his collaborator Stefania Caterina.

[11] http://www.versolanuovacreazione.it/

and also:

http://www.fortezzadellimmacolata.org/appuntamenti

[12] Marko Perić, Herzegovina affair [The Herzegovinian case], Mostar, 2002. The diocesan link, in Croatian:

http://www.md-tm.ba/sites/default/files/hercegovacka_afera.pdf.

[13] Voice of the Council (fortnightly of Zagreb), 14/1975, p. 4.

[14] The Latin original of Pope Boniface published on Journal of Friars Minor, Rome, II/1989, pp. 85-89.

[15] The pontifical decree Pope Boniface, English version:

https://cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=648.

[16] Archive of the Herzegovinian Franciscan Province, prot. 160/76, of 10 May 1976.

[17] Drazen Kutleša (edited), Mirror of Justice [justice mirror], The diocesan Curia of Mostar on the alleged apparitions and messages of Medjugorje, Mostar, 2001, randomly.

http://www.md-tm.ba/sites/default/files/ogledalo_pravde.pdf

See. also:

http://md-tm.ba/clanci/le-apparizioni-dei-primi-sette-giorni-medugorje

[18] S. AND. Žanić a S.E. Alojzij Šuštar, Vice president of the Episcopal Conference of Yugoslavia, the letter of 24. XI. 1983, prot. 1172/1983.

[19] The. Ivankovic, Agenda 1983. It is a photocopied calendar of 11 pages with notices written by Vicka, in his own hand, on the "messages" of the "appearance" to disobedient religious, Ivan Prusina and Ivica Vego, chaplains of Mostar, with these seven messy dates: il 19-XII-1981; on 3-I-1982; l’11-I-1982; on 20-I-1982; il 26-IV-1982; il 29-IX-1982; The end of August 1982; il 15-IV-1982; il 16-IV-1982. The copy was delivered by Vicka to the Curia of Mostar on 17 May 1983, and is kept in the Diocesan Archive of Mostar. You see: Nikola Bulat, The truth will set you free [The truth will set you free], Mostar, 2006, pp. 52-56 and 99. All the text in Croatian, compared with the extracts of p. The joys of Grafenauer, therein, pp. 100-114.

[20] Tomislav Vlasic, Chronicle of Apparitions in Medjugorje Parish, 1981 -1983 [The Chronicle of the apparitions in the parish of Medjugorje]. It's about the chronicle, conducted and handwritten by Brother Tomislav Vlašić since 11 August 1981 to the 15 October 1983; the original in the parish office of Medjugorje, the copy was delivered by the author to Bishop Žanić il 16 November 1983, preserved in the diocesan Curia of Mostar. On the authenticity of the Chronicle see the article by N. Round, on. CIT., pp. 23-33.

[21] “Supplement to 'Information'” [Supplement to “Information”], in: Official Gazette [Official bulletin], 2/1982, p. 2. Published as a brochure in: Croatian, Francesca, English, italiano, German, No.. 7; P. Žanić, Medjugorje, in Italian, Mostar, 1990, No.. 7.

[22] Supplement to “Information” of the official Bulletin of the Dioceses, 2/1982, pp. 2-3; P. Žanić, Medjugorje, 1990, No.. 8.

[23] InAgenda by Vicka Ivankovic, 15. IV. 1982; N. Round, on. cit., Mostar, 2006, pp. 105-106; The diocesan link of the book, in Croatian:

http://www.md-tm.ba/sites/default/files/istina_ce_vas_osloboditi.pdf.

[24] Radogost Grafenauer came from Medjugorje to Mostar on 2 February 1983 and delivered several extracts from the documents available in Medjugorje to Bishop Žanić, referring to the "Herzegovinian case" and to the two chaplains of Mostar, see the Croatian text N. Round, on. cit., pp. 57-59.

[25] P. Žanić, Medjugorje, in Italian, Mostar, 1990, No.. 9, p. 5.

[26] P. Žanić, Medjugorje, in Italian, Mostar, 1990, No.. 10, p. 6.

[27] P. Žanić, Medjugorje, in Italian, Mostar, 1990, No.. 12, p. 7.

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62 thoughts on "Medjugorie and the Gospa of the liars: reasonable doubts about the apparitions and self-styled seers

  1. Another case in which the Madonna calls a bishop: “Our Lady told me that you have a stone heart”.

    One day, we were in September 1995, Our Lady asked my daughter to inform the bishop about the apparitions.
    We obeyed, but Bishop. Grillo chased Jessica out of accusation of telling lies. Then she scolded me and Anna Maria saying that we were conditioning her. But the next day Jessica returned to office: «Our Lady wants me to speak with the Bishop».
    I was fought - I felt hurt, even angry, as we had been treated - but then I capitulated to the resolution of my daughter who at the time was alone 6 years and 5 months. The scene of the previous day was repeated in the bishop's house, but he was shocked by Jessica's leave: «Our Lady told me that you have a heart of stone». So Msgr. Grillo tested the Virgin, asking her to reveal to my daughter a secret known only to him.
    And how it ended?
    That Jessica later reported to him in the name of Our Lady not one but several facts concerning her person. Mons. Grillo was so upset that he was seized with an illness, as had already happened following the tearing in his hands.
    But from that moment he also believed in the apparitions, as he revealed in his memorial published in 2011, and asked for an audience with John Paul II to report everything.

    I remember that the Madonna of Civitavecchia was bought in Medjugorie.
    Source: https://gloria.tv/post/HEwfSPWD2cwM1pgV9G8zg71D

    1. … and she has no idea,with what respect and devotion, the De Gregori family of Civitavecchia, he behaved towards the Bishop?
      Bishop Girolamo Grillo asked “a sign” in the same way as asked by the parish priest of Lourdes to Bernadette and by the Bishop to the shepherd children of Fatima.
      Apart from this: she extrapolates a fact from my lecture and tries to use entirely irrelevant episodes, flying over what I treat to talk about something else.

      So answer her a question: how it is possible for Our Lady to magnify, praise and support a Franciscan friar who was disobedient to the authority of the Church and her superiors against the Bishop, who had sexual relations in particular with a nun, which has failed in all ways to professed religious vows?
      answer: how is it possible that Our Lady of Medjugorie goes against the Bishop and speaks well and supports a man like that Franciscan priest, finally came out of the Catholic Church to found a new age millennial sect?
      To this he must answer, do not panegiric about other facts or narrating that the Madonnina of Civitavecchia comes from Medjugorie.
      Answer as possible, than Our Lady of Medjugorie, has argued with a sword like a subject.

      1. Years ago I had looked at the story of Father Tomislav that initially was, as you tell in your precise reconstruction , very involved in the apparitions affair.
        Then he came to Italy and founded a kind of community with that person in mind, to which perhaps you are alluding , which still continues to have messages ( whose, I want to emphasize, I don't believe at all). I understand that until 2007 was in full communion with the Church.
        The problems arise later because of the difficulty of accepting, by Bishop Bruno Forte, the very particular charisms of the seer and the community therefore dissolved.
        I understand that Father Tomislav himself asked for a lay state discharge.
        As you have often testified, telling us about some of the dark evils of the Church, where grace abounds, sin abounds, why not think (like I did) that simply Father Tomislav has been tempted and has given up? And’ an apostle who has betrayed, unfortunately one of the many.

        I look forward to the continuation of your work.

    2. Thank you very much because you have clarified many things to me, because I didn't believe it so much. But since ever since the coronavirus pandemic, the messages are gone and they said that when the secrets came true they would have warned days before, from here it was clear to me that it was not true and I had doubts. And she made it all clear to me: thank you very much.
      To be honest I told her to Maria Santissima that I was in doubt and she came to meet me through this video thanks again.

    3. Naive bishop: these are not the proofs to ask because the devil also knows them. Indeed, if Civitavecchia had been the work of the Madonna it would not have stopped.

  2. Father Ariel Estimated,

    thanks for this precise and merciless summary of a phenomenon on which I myself now have great doubts. The conference of Dr.. D'amico available on YouTube opened my eyes.

    Allow me to propose a question that I had exposed in another post.
    My whole childhood was marked by devotion to Medjugorie, where my mother went’ in 1982, and where he said he attended the “sun miracle”. My mother is a practical spirit and I have no reason to think she lied or was hallucinated. His testimony is the only element that still prevents me from branding it all as quackery, or worse.

    And’ It is possible to imagine that Satan could accomplish such a prodigy? And’ imaginable that God could allow him to deceive the faithful in this way? There are precedents for prodigious mass phenomena, of a diabolical nature?

    Thank you for your attention

  3. Dearest father Ariel, what he wrote perhaps means that the alleged seers have corrupted the Ruini commission to make them declare that he believed the first seven Marian apparitions that took place since 24 June to 3 July 1981?

    1. She specializes in bringing out what is not contained in the writings and making people say what they have not said.
      I say what I said clearly, I have not even been remotely touched on what you ask.

  4. Monsignor Andrea Gemma was right when he said that Medjùgorie was a scam to make money and that's it… …….You Father Ariel,what do you think of “charismatics ” come Ironi Spuldaro,that Paolo Brosio in his books venerates him and in some photos he has his hands laid on him despite being a layman? ……In these years Medjugòrìe has been the springboard for lay people or nuns who pretend to be healers,with an IDENTICAL style to Protestant pastors,also for this reason I have never trusted Medjùgorìe…… ……

  5. “Of course, if the Church has pronounced several times and above all in a negative way, in the face of phenomena always in progress, crushing them if necessary from birth”.
    Indeed, it does not appear that Sixtus V, is Papa tosto, waited for the end of the alleged bleeding to challenge the hatchet and pronounce the famous “like Christ I adore you, like wood I split you” …

  6. Dearest, I have always followed his sections and he does not always find me completely in agreement but on what is overwritten as for the previous articles on the subject, he finds me equally aligned with his theme. But I find that he always refrains from commenting on current affairs (the one worthy of attention) such as the last transmission of Reports and the comment of Avvenire, I would be curious to know his thought.
    Thanks,
    Giuseppe

  7. In fact, it would be time for the Church to pronounce definitively on this banter. Not to mention the even worse phenomenon of Pedro Regis.

  8. Let's validate that it's all a bluff.
    It remains to shed light on the inexplicable phenomena rationally occurred especially in the early years but even if with less intensity still today.

    Excluding the supernatural of divine origin and the preternatural / diabolical mediumistic and leaving pure human bluff as a valid hypothesis ( brethren; fake seers). And they are not 4 healings and some flashing lights in the sky, but hundreds of different types, from documented healings that doctors can't explain, to the signs in the sky especially in the initial period (for example the luminous writing MIR that is "peace" in the sky testified by the locals, by pilgrims of different nationalities, even by the communist law enforcement agencies, to the fire in the Krizevac hill to find nothing after the arrival of the firefighters with even a helicopter who find nothing and no burn marks , at the cross krizevac which disappears and a woman's thinner is visible (testimony of thousands of people present) , to the pilot who tries and tries to throw bombs on the church and is then slammed and captured and says that he tried again several times but the monitor strangely darkened preventing him from aiming (he says so), to the guy the paralyzed BBC mentioned who walked down the mountain (but his back is still broken and the doctors are unable to explain how he can walk) etc., etc

    As more than children did (9/ 15 year old) to organize and carry on such a thing?? As children they trained to produce everything…

    1. Sorry the corrector has changed me a few words:

      "Silhouettes" of a woman ( instead of the cross)

      and plane abatutto instead of sbatutto .

    2. I don't believe why, as you say “a paralyzed man came down from the mountain”, I believe because Christ was God incarnate, is dead, resurrected and ascended to heaven. That's why I believe, and in what, I believe.

      Know therefore, if it wasn't clear to her, that the Church asks believers, as a prerequisite for being Christian-Catholic, to believe with certain faith:

      1. in God the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth and of all visible and invisible things;
      2. To the incarnation of the Word of God born of the ever Virgin Mary;
      3. to death, resurrection and ascension to heaven of Christ;
      4. to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son;
      5. to the Church one, saint, Catholic and Apostolic;
      6. the profession of a single baptism for the remission of sins;
      7. to the resurrection of the dead and eternal life.

      He finds all these things written in the Symbol of Faith: the I believe, that I suppose you act, but which I fear has not fully understood, or maybe not at all, consider the reasons and “prove” which leads in the form of a question.
      This is the faith of the Church and this is what the Church requires in order to profess herself believers: the seven points that I have enunciated.

      All the things that she tumbled, mi tip: what they add to our faith?
      Even if they were true, they add something to our faith? Or by chance they serve somehow even and only vaguely to support it?
      In conclusion: to believe in the resurrection of Christ God from the dead, it is perhaps necessary to believe these alleged wonders that you listed and occurred in the “new Jerusalem” of “Medjugorje”?

      concluding: everything you listed, like it or not, it is completely irrelevant to keep the foundations of the Catholic Church and our Holy Faith standing.
      And mind you I'm not saying it: the Church teaches it. So, what I said to you as a priest, theologian and faithful servant of truth in the Church and for the Church, are not my opinions, but what the Church has been teaching for two thousand years.

      And she, to me who believe with firm and solid faith in all the articles of faith that I have enunciated, perhaps he wants to convince me of things completely irrelevant to the existence of the apostolic Catholic faith?

      In conclusion … a powder’ of study of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would not hurt at all. Also because if it allows, anyone who reads his comment concealed behind series questions “or try to deny these amazing facts?”, then reading my answer below … well, any person with true sense and catholic faith, she immediately realizes that she needs to be catechized into Catholicism by me, it is not I who need to be catechized to Medjugorianism by you through tests that are not tests, because they do not serve the authenticity of faith, therefore they are and remain irrelevant. And that I do not say it, the deposit of faith and the perennial Magisterium of the Church teaches it.

      1. Father Ariel Caro

        I am "almost" offended by his reply (of which I share not the 100% but the 360%) . I was talking about something else ( and not of "faith in God" in relation to wonders, to the sensational : that faith is immature childish faith / straw fire , in the gospels many of that crowd that flocked "excited" by way of rock concert , from the miracles of Jesus and who praised him on Palm day a week later he screamed crucified before Pilate and mocked him while agonizing on the cross, that "part" of bogus believers equal identical to certain itchy potted by the straw faith excited by the sensational that punctually rush with an itchiness that has little to do with true faith : examples are seen in charismatic meetings or even in medjugorje or elsewhere where certain phenomena occur (by the work of God or Diabolica) , that "portion" of straw believers like yesterday crucified God after having acclaimed him today they re-transmit him after the pilgrimage or the "charismatic" meeting with healings and spectacular exorcisms , in "normal" daily life ( where we conquer paradise in the ordinariness of life where the extraordinary is absent) living a "de facto" pseudo-Christian daily life .

        Agree with you, net that made me say things that I have not said .

        I was talking about something else !!!

        If you allow me I will do another post tomorrow without appearing intrusive.

        forgot : The "supernatural" intervention is part of the "pedagogy of God" ( Old and New Testament Docet) but it must be read correctly through the discernment of the Church which in the end while proceeding in an apparently contradictory way at the end gives the right sentence .

        1. Dear Antonio,

          not if he must take it and write all the posts he wants because she will always be a welcome guest.
          Let me explain: on my Facebook profile there are over a thousand messages, in total they were beyond 1500, however a few hundred were canceled because they contained free and heavy insults to say the least harmful to the people who had written them, certainly not to whom they were addressed.

          Dozens of messages have been written in which many people claim the veracity of the phenomenon based on extraordinary miracles, never ascertained by the Church, place that in 39 years the Church has never recognized a single miracle.
          This alone was the reason for my response after receiving numerous such messages.

          1. I Understand
            I didn't know this , in the sense that I do not follow Facebook as for my choice I have never been a member of Facebook or a
            Tweeter I don't have access to .
            Having said and said that I tend to believe that at least initially the apparitions were authentic where by initially I mean much beyond the first 7 . Obviously, all with "reserve" is subject to the judgment of the Church ( the question is completely open : "De facto" there is no endorsement or condemnation of the first seven or of the subsequent ones , the commission more or less said that the former 7 they could be authentic and the rest leave the time they find , that is, it is equivalent to saying that the question is open…) while instead I am very, very perplexed for the Medjugorie of the last few years where I see a sort of degeneration even of the visionaries or better some things that leave me perplexed ( which are very well exposed by you: vedasi L Ivan, the hotel structure of Marija , and three other things that clash with the status of seers etc).
            For the rest I exclude purely human bluffing by the visionaries from a very young age ( 9 / 15) for a whole series of reasons that I explained in a post yesterday that didn't appear . In summary, even with the hypothetical maneuver of the manipulative friars they would not have withstood the pressure to which they were subjected by the authorities and by the communist family police including. And the problem remains that artificially we cannot build phenomena that cannot be explained scientifically and documented .
            Greetings

  9. I want to believe the good faith of the alleged seers, although I must admit that the article of Fr.. Ariel, very well done, pushes me in other directions. I ask, as I asked some “medjugoriani” : it can be excluded that they are demonic apparitions that may have misled those boys?

    1. Here you approach what I wanted to say in the previous post ( but also in my post in the previous article on Medjugorie by Father Ariel).

      My partner is local ( of Mostar ) the parents have experienced the whole story from the beginning ( like all the locals) , and experienced the tragedy of the war . With absolute certainty I can guarantee that there have been phenomena of a non-rational nature that transcend scientific reasoning and in fact cannot be fully explained : both in terms of the physical status of the presumed seers at the time of the so-called ecstasy , both external , both with documented healings ( hundreds) .

      That's why with absolute certainty I exclude the bluff of the boys almost children ( 9 / 15 year old ) . Normal children and adolescents from normal families ( poor and poorly educated) . The first years have been persecuted by the communist police them and their families in all possible and imaginable ways yet they have not succumbed ( there may have been moments of contradiction or confusion under pressure from all sides crazy , but they went on ) . But do you really believe that it is possible for a child to 9 years as Jakov could have been a co-supporter of a deadly bluff like that? But let's not joke …

      The "purely" human bluff is to be excluded .

      Stay by exclusion:
      – Divine supernatural intervention
      -diabolical preternatural intervention

      – initial Divine supernatural intervention with sliding into the diabolical falsehood ( for various reasons: betrayal of faith , enrichment…

  10. estimated P. Ariel,
    I am not clear about this fury against Our Lady of Medjugorje, who has been talking for many years perhaps because she is the only one who still says Catholic things (like the call to prayer and fasting); if the hostility is based on the lifestyle of the visionaries it is not a proof xchè even the Christ had no horror to leave his body for burial at 2 rich men and it is not a fault to be.
    I don't know if this phenomenon is true but it doesn't seem important to me, I'm almost 40 years that lasts (like the crossing of the Jewish people in the desert), why not wait for others 2 the 3 years to attack it when, missing the promised signs, there will not even be a need to do so as it has already been dissolved?
    I do not understand this hatred and insistence when it seems to me that there are many others as well + serious problems to deal with

    1. How to Claudia,

      I answer by saying that “appearances” they started badly right away, indeed, Thursday 1st October 1981 the Gospa began by telling the visionaries these colossal heresies then put black on white in front of several witnesses as an authentic message given to “fortune tellers” from the Virgin Mary:

      «All religions are equal before God. God reigns over them as the ruler in his kingdom. In the world, not all religions are equal, because people don't submit to God's commandments. They reject and denigrate them ».

      Such an affirmation nullifies the entire mystery of salvation and the fact that Christ founded one, only and true Church. With a similar affirmation one sinks between religious relativism and the spiritualist tendencies of new age.
      But above all it is a negation of our profession of faith in which we profess "I believe in the Church one, saint, catholic and apostolic ".

      To say therefore that Our Lady of Medjugorje "is the only one who still says Catholic things", is a risky thing to say the least, as it is risky to say that "there are many other and more serious problems to deal with" while many of our good and naive faithful take words of this kind as authentic statements of the Blessed Virgin.

      This is not about hatred, but to defend the truth from error, especially before the simple.

      1. A curiosity: where you can find the message of October 1st 1981?
        I searched and found that of the 10 October 1981 (“Faith cannot be alive without prayer. Pray more. " ) and that of 19 September 1981 (“Why do you ask so many questions? Every answer is in the gospel. "), but I can't find the one on October 1st anywhere 1981.

        1. And’ collected in this book by Father René Laurentin

          http://www.temponuovo.net/ar3/laurentin-mess-1981/raccolta-messaggi.jpg

          Anyway, that message, as other, later they canceled them, in the same way in which, two of “fortune tellers” in particular, they ran their diaries years later, forgetting that the original sheets of the messages they handwritten are still preserved in the archives at the Episcopal Curia of Mostar-Duvno

          etc.… etc. …

          1. I haven't read L
            Entire content of the Ruini report but some extracts ( and where? On the internet of course….-;), I believe and suppose that we have scrutinized everything carefully ,all the more the original correspondence from the Curia . Because I think I have read ,in the extracts from the Ruini report , that there is no "manipulation" and if I remember correctly it is also stated that there is no diabolical influence . I repeat : I read excerpts from the relationship and I may have misunderstood .
            There are no such statements in official messages.
            Why Is That , as a layman of theology, if in the messages attributed to Our Lady there appeared to be even one theological error , or an obvious manipulation , I seemed to understand that it automatically skips everything . Possible that squadron of ,seems, skilled theologians did not notice?

            I remember comments where it was said that Our Lady asked to respect those who followed another religious creed because they too are her children and perhaps also that in other religions there may be fragments of Divine truth as reflecting the "desire for God" that God himself has placed in every human creature . But not putting other religions on the same level as the Christian Creed .

          2. (Comment starts 1)
            Thanks for the link why, not being particularly interested in Medjgorje, I don't even go looking for many things.
            The question is: “All religions are good?”
            I do not create create particular theological problems the second part of the answer which reads that “In the world, not all religions are equal, because people don't submit to God's commandments. They reject them and denigrate them.”
            Instead, I believe that theological problems can be encountered, by some, in the first part: “All religions are equal before God. God reigns over them as the ruler in his kingdom. “

          3. (Comment starts 2)
            The CCC writes at No. 28:
            “Throughout their history, and up to the present day, man's search for God has been expressed in many ways, through their beliefs and their religious behaviors (prayers, sacrifices, cults, meditations, etc.). Despite the ambiguities they can present, these forms of expression are so universal that man can be called a religious being: God "created from one man all the nations of men, because they lived on the whole face of the earth. For them he established the order of the times and the boundaries of their space, to seek God, if they ever come to find it by groping, although it is not far from each of us. In fact, we live in him, we move and exist » (At 17,26-28).”
            If it still wasn't clear why when asked if “All religions”, i.e. “the search for God by men… expressed in multiple ways, through their beliefs and their religious behaviors”, “THEY ARE GOOD?”
            is answered that “All religions ARE EQUAL before God. God reigns over them as the ruler in his kingdom.”,
            specifying, however, that in earthly reality, in the concrete practical implementation of the “search for God by men” “NOT ALL religions ARE EQUAL”,
            adviser to open the CCC to search for at least another ten articles dealing with religions.

          4. Drafting, (Comment starts 1) and (Comment starts 2) they are part of a single comment that I have divided in two because of the available characters.
            If you published them as a single comment, the meaning of what I wanted to express would be better understood.
            Thanks.

          5. Where did the “Comment starts 2!?
            It did not pass the scrutiny of the censorship because it contradicts what the boss said?

          6. I opened and here is the comment pending: I copy and paste and send it back:
            (Comment starts 2)
            The CCC writes at No. 28:
            “Throughout their history, and up to the present day, man's search for God has been expressed in many ways, through their beliefs and their religious behaviors (prayers, sacrifices, cults, meditations, etc.). Despite the ambiguities they can present, these forms of expression are so universal that man can be called a religious being: God "created from one man all the nations of men, because they lived on the whole face of the earth. For them he established the order of the times and the boundaries of their space, to seek God, if they ever come to find it by groping, although it is not far from each of us. In fact, we live in him, we move and exist » (At 17,26-28).”
            If it still wasn't clear why when asked if "All religions", that is, "the search for God by men ... expressed in many ways, through their beliefs and their religious behaviors ", “THEY ARE GOOD?”
            it is replied that “All religions ARE EQUAL before God. God reigns over them like the ruler in his kingdom. ",
            specifying, however, that in earthly reality, in the concrete practical implementation of the "search for God by men" "NOT ALL religions ARE EQUAL",
            adviser to open the CCC to search for at least another ten articles dealing with religions.

        2. Yes, I'm sure I sent it, so much so that when I sent the 1 May, that comment, together with another, still appeared pending approval.
          .

      2. Assume that Our Lady always expresses herself (or expect it to express itself) for dogmatic definitions it seems to me a specious way of proceeding and not without preconceptions (how to demand that the Pope never speak out of hand). Indeed, to say that all religions are equal before God can very well be understood in the sense that all men are equal before God, regardless of their religion, you don't even need to apply the principle of charity in listening. The second sentence then leaves no doubt: “In the world, not all religions are equal”, and also explains why, “because people don't submit to God's commandments”. God's commandments are universal, that is, Catholics, that is, they concern all men of all religions. What would be the heresy? And where and when in the following 40 years Our Lady professed or spread a New Age faith? Who ever going to Medjugorje as a practicing Catholic later became his son of flowers? Please, let's be facts!

    2. How to Claudia,

      the Catholic Madonna would never have allowed lay people to disobey their Bishop!
      Being rich is not a sin,but making money only with the Tourism of pseudo apparitions the question stinks.
      Fasting and prayer also practice Orthodox,Jews and Muslims, but obedience to his Bishop in Communion with the Pope, it is the badge of true Catholics.

      1. look, the Catholic Madonna cannot prevent a bishop from disobeying God (I speak in general), and therefore it cannot even prevent a layman from disobeying a bishop. Beyond this, however, it is not possible to consider his argument conclusive because of the fact that, anyhow, it is more right to obey God than to men; for which reason it will be possible to say if there was real disobedience only if and when we will know if the Madonna spoke or not. Until then, in principle, the possibility that a visionary may disobey his bishop must be accepted.

    1. With all due respect : indeed painful I emphasize and underline: P-E-N-O-S-A.

      For a level playing field in order not to appear "biased" ( I tend to believe in the truthfulness of Medjugorie but with many "reservations" and all subordinate to the opinion of the Church ) I say that there are equally painful testimonies in favor of Medjugorje.

      But this of the D Amico is really painful …..

      1. @Father Ariel

        Dear Don Ariel, this was written by you :

        "Expensive Antonio,

        she doesn't have to take it and write all the posts she wants because she will always be a welcome guest. "

        ——-
        I sent a post but another idem did not appear and thinking that maybe there is a technical problem I sent another repeating myself in the concepts .
        The only one that has appeared is this.
        If there is a technical problem, I ask otherwise, I can kindly ask you what is wrong with those four things I wrote , given that there is no arrogant tone , nor insults , nor saccenteria ( they are also rather badly written since I write from I Phone) , neither arrogance nor anything else.

        Thanks

        Greetings

        1. Dear Antonio,

          but he is convinced that he has sent messages?
          We have only received this to which we are replying.
          It may be that he wrote the text without giving “sending”?
          Because they didn't come to us.

          If you send them we insert them.

      2. Thank you Father Ariel,
        I agree 100% with what you said in your impeccable analysis.
        If I can, I have two questions for which I would be honored to receive your answer, if you think you can help me.
        1) because Father Amorth with his statements, it gave credibility to the Medjugorje phenomenon (unlike other exorcists), strengthening the credibility of the visionaries before the church gave an opinion (thus contravening the opinions of the bishops)?
        2) what do you think of the alleged apparitions of the Virgin in Anguera (considering also that the Medjugorians become intractable when Anguera is named)?
        Thank you Father if you can and will answer,
        Best wishes
        Here, l

  11. What I don't like about this article is that, while the Magisterium teaches that believing or not believing in Medjugorje absolutely does not call into question the Catholic faith, breathless to all those hard and pure who would like all the excommunicated “superstitious bigots” who look at Medjgorje thoughtfully and without any fanaticism.

    1. … as proof that you have not seen the video, or if he saw it he didn't listen to it, because it imputes what I have not said, seen that four times in 45 minutes I repeated, explained and clarified that many people, visiting that place and going to it to pray, have regained faith, they went back to the Church and changed their lives. And I expressed everything by saying and repeating that "everything is indubitable".

      1. I must take note that there is like a mental anteroom designed to filter the writings of others “the use of dolphins”: I give up!!!

    2. No!

      Orenzo,

      the Church and her Magisterium say nothing but believe in unapproved apparitions (and therefore in Medjugorje) is the same thing, but it teaches that not believing those approved does not incur any excommunication, as long as they are not denigrated or denied … Marian dogmas!

      As you say it, instead, it would seem that Medjugorje is approved, but this is not the case and there are many Medjugorians who also speak of a sanctuary when the church of San Giacomo is only a parish, and that's all Father Ariel is trying to explain, without going into the personal merit of the individual people who crowd that place.

      1. Card. Kuharic’, president of the Yugoslav Episcopal Conference, at the end of the meeting held in Zadar since 9 on April 11 1991 he declared: «We Bishops, after three years of studies conducted by the appropriate Commission, we welcomed Medjugorje as a place of prayer, as a sanctuary… As for the supernaturality of the apparitions, we said that for now we cannot say that it exists; we still have important reservations. Therefore we leave this aspect to further investigation. The Church is in no hurry »… then Yugoslavia collapsed e, perhaps, it didn't seem true to someone to take a few pebbles from their shoes after being caught in the face…

  12. Father Ariel Caro,
    I saw his video and I fully agree with his reflection made by a good shepherd who tries to authoritatively recall the poor faithful to reasonableness. Among other things, I speak as a convinced ex-Medjugorian, fed by years of Radio Maria and pilgrimages. Then from 2015 I started to have suspicious claims and for consistency's sake I investigated until I came to its own conclusions with bewilderment and suffering. True faith is truly something else and even the same devotion to Mary Most Holy implies a very different respect as the Saints have always taught us. I believe the good Lord really exorcised me from this false devotion, with all due respect to those who believe in good faith.

    In conclusion, I believe we are in the era in which “power of deception”, as Saint Paul calls it (2Ts 2,11), is at its peak; only those who remain firm in true faith in Jesus Christ, in true devotion to the Heavenly Mother and in the teachings of the fathers and saints she can proceed immune and safe.

    Greetings

    1. Dear Daniele…Reading your comment I have not found all “appearance ” nothing illogical until I remembered to activate my faith and rereading it I felt the smell of burning…I state that I have made several pilgrimages but that I am not one “Medjugorjano” as with this term you can only define a subject taken from a science fiction novel set in Medjugorje. As you should well know from “convinced” Our Lady in Medjugorje does not come to teach us the faith, but rather he comes to reawaken faith towards Christ and his Apostolic church comes for himself, as you say,now you understand that true faith is something else,it means that before your faith was dead or dead…And then this is the grace of Medjugorje and this is the great miracle…Now you are back to true faith, Viva, taught by the Church of Christ. Read:Luke 17: 11-19. I give you some advice:make one last pilgrimage to Medjugorje,get on your knees and thank Our Lady for making you take this path of faith in the grace of God. Thank her, because that's the least it deserves…DON'T DO AS YOU LIKE 10 HEALED LEBBROSIS. Return to thank,then feel free to abandon,evaluate and judge the apparitions. As for the good God I don't think it was an exorcism as the devotion you had before you have it now, that is, you always profess the APOSTOLIC BELIEVE. Beware of exorcisms,they don't always free on the first try,I have seen people freed,other non-Catholic non-Marian women not released…

  13. Just Dorotea and thank you father Ariel. I have been following her for some time and this is a very gratifying surprise for me. Me too, by secular, I try to shed light on the facts of Medjugorje and often I am surprised at the people I talk to. Unfortunately, many people take it for granted that the apparitions are true but that the Church cannot pronounce because the phenomena are still underway. And this is where I leverage the Zara declaration of 1991 ( that I hoped she would mention ). This marked a stance, albeit temporary, when he said that on the basis of the investigations carried out it was not possible to say that these were supernatural phenomena. Even the question of pilgrimages had already been resolved by card. Bertone when he said they were admitted on condition that they were not a’ authentication of the phenomena. I realized that the refutation ( by the two great bishops who succeeded Mostar towards the alleged apparitions) it is also supported by documented online publications of some serious scholars of the phenomenon . and this is useful because someone thinks that if the church doesn't approve, it is the church that is wrong ! As if it were the apparition that authenticated the’ authority, and not vice versa ! I am with you ( and with her are many priests ). Thank you father.

  14. Sorry Fr. Ariel,

    here you criticize in a very open way p. Livio Fanzaga as a supporter of the apparitions of Medjugorie in the absence of an official pronouncement of the Church; but then he makes an article like this in which he issues his personal definitive pronouncement, always in the absence of a formal pronouncement of the Church.
    I think that in the absence of a pronouncement by the Church, both positions should remain legitimate, but, instead, it seems that for her the supporters of the truthfulness of the apparitions are “fanaticos” of a new religion that even apostrophizes contemptuously “madam medjugorian”, except then complaining about the insults he receives in return.

    Then I ask you: if then, for school hypotheses, The Church, of which you still want a pronouncement (but, I guess, just because he thinks he already knows him) should instead recognize the authenticity of the apparitions, there is nothing that would change everything he wrote? Are, as I think, the answer is no, because she only relies on certain facts, it does not run the risk of finding itself in an insoluble logical-rational conflict with the Church? Thanks

    1. Before a comment like yours, anyone would do the simplest thing: delete it without even finishing reading it. And’ the least that anyone would do with anyone who claims the right not to reason, distorting every speech and every explanation I gave in 45 minutes of explanations recognized as precise and clear even by people – intellectually honest – who think quite differently from me.
      But she doesn't know what the reasoning is, critical sense and above all intellectual honesty. Therefore, like the lower league sophists, takes concepts that I clearly expressed, it distorts them making them unclear and then tries to turn them against me.

      I told her that anyone would just cancel, but not me, than towards the people of God, even towards the most stubborn and unreasonable sheep, I have moral and pastoral obligations.

      In an awkwardly sophisticated way, you first of all put on the same identical plane “authenticity” and “not authenticity” defining both “personal opinions”, by grasping grotesque that, since the Church was not pronounced, everyone can think of it as they please and in a completely legitimate way.

      To all this she adds the worst thing ever, that is: the trial to my intentions, presuming and imagining that I even know what I think !? Here is what he writes …

      "Then I ask you: if then, for school hypotheses, The Church, of which you still want a pronouncement (but, I guess, just because he thinks he already knows him) should instead recognize the authenticity of the apparitions, there is nothing that would change everything he wrote?»

      All expressed, in the end he asks me if, in case of possible recognition, I could not then run the risk of finding myself "In an insoluble logical-rational conflict with the Church".

      Well I ask you: but she, exposed everything and in the way he exposed it, he really thinks he can even appeal to logical and rational criteria?
      Now, I don't expect much from life, but, a minimum of respect for my human intelligence, just the minimum union necessary, that yes, I pretend, because I believe I owed it.

      1. … because it doesn't quote the whole article in full?
        Because the first part says more, compared to what she would like him to say with this cut piece.

  15. In my view, all the deduction arguments reported in the article are not directives to demonstrate that “appeared the” is not the Madonna. I would like to limit myself to the most abused:
    – the luxury in which the visionaries would live. the Madonna – as long as it's you, of course – chose these guys like “Apostles of my Love” and told them that they were free to make the lifestyle choices they desired (religious or double) following one's morally legitimate vocation. Having these children dedicated their lives to the apostolate of the Gospa, and given that the Lord said that the worker has the right to his reward, I don't find anything unseemly if, as fathers and mothers of the family, have continued to do what they have been doing since the early years (that is, hosting pilgrims in their home), building over time also a hotel from which to draw a source of subsistence, as well as all the inhabitants of Medjugorie. This circumstance cannot be used to speak of merchandise without doing the same with the religious paccottiglia shops in Piazza S. Pietro and with all the religious reception facilities for pilgrims in Rome or elsewhere.. And she too, Ariel, speaks of God on this site to earn a living without me having anything to complain about, on the contrary, that God deserves it.
    – the abuses perpetrated by some friars. If anything, this would be proof in favor: Father Amorth said that where the Madonna appears there is always the devil. Sins and abuses in the Church have never scratched my faith in it, why should I use this argument against Medjugorie now?

    1. «And you too, Ariel, speaks of God on this site to earn a living without me having anything to complain about, on the contrary, God give him credit ".

      If I waited to live, or to be able to do only the food shopping of the strictly necessary, like bread and milk, with the proceeds of the site of this magazine to which my brothers and I devote time and energy for the building up of the People of God, I could easily be going to starve.
      Readers are very numerous, visits amount to about / over ten million per year, but the offers that reach us very few and us, contrary to Father Livio Fanzaga, we don't ask for money every two hours of transmission. There are account details on the home page, if anyone wants to help us help us.

      The 4.000 annual euros for the domain, or so-called server provider, my mother paid them again this year, because through our many readers we have not collected them.

      But it, if I, after all, do not write badly and do not even fail to be convincing if necessary, I declared to see the Madonna one day and one no, who are the custodian of secret trembles on the future of humanity and so on, I would have already raised several hundred thousand euros.
      Unfortunately,, when people are offered the truth, which is often also quite bitter, money never comes.

      Stefano, he intends to continue with these speeches and with these examples, one more unhappy than another?

      1. Peter gentile, thanks for your reply. Meanwhile, I would like to tell you that faith has nothing to do here, nor is any act of faith in the apparitions due. Here only the reasons for credibility of the phenomena taking place in Medjugorje are discussed.
        And I don't understand how, after 40 years and after the authorization of pilgrimages by the Church, it can still be said on the basis of an equivocal message, that in Medjugorje the Madonna supports the devil, that is, the devil appears to appear. If it's him, it must be converted, since it invites to prayer, fasting, to confession, on returning to the Church, to the Rosary in the family, to pray for sinners, for the sick, for the distant, for priests, for the Pope, etc., etc., and that to these invitations people respond with a stream of conversions that cannot fail to remember what flows from the side of the temple in the prophecy of Ezekiel.
        If the times we live do not have all the characteristics of the last times, if not exactly the end of time, perhaps Medjugorje would lose much of its credibility and spiritual attraction, but, in the present circumstances, these stand out as against the light. The Madonna is here since 40 years not for messages, but to pray with us to be able to prepare ourselves for a test that the most vigilant spirits feel impending and that cannot be overcome without a reawakening of faith.
        On the presumed conflict of interest of the visionaries I have already said that it is a claudicating argument, and, anyway, it did not exist at the beginning and for many years to follow.

    2. Mr. Stefano, you really can't see a conflict of interest in doing the “clairvoyant” and the hotelier for pilgrims devoted to the apparition that he himself would receive? This you believe is morally legitimate? Let me, but I would have at least reservations about it. And then, excuse me, I understand that where the Madonna appears there is always the Devil ... the problem is that according to his reasoning the alleged appearance would support the Devil rather than oppose him, Since, instead of rebuke the dissident friars, would support them. If this would be evidence in favor of the truthfulness of the apparitions of Medjugorie, then I doubt that the Blessed Virgin appears.
      Really, with fraternal frankness, I tell her that in order to believe this matter, reason must be completely turned off. And you know that faith, not supported by reason, it is not really faith.

  16. “… Therefore neither the bishops, nor does the Pope himself have the authority to reach the conclusion that the Virgin really appeared here, but they don't even have the authority to prevent the faithful from believing it. The Magisterium of the Church is absolutely irrefutable only when it affirms that something is or is not in the ambit of that Revelation that the Church received until the end of the apostles' era, found in the Bible and transmitted. What is not included in the Bible and in the teachings cannot be proclaimed by the magisterium of the Church doctrine of the faith, nor content of a mandatory faith. Therefore only naive people can expect bishops to resolve the Medjugorje issue so that we know exactly what we should or should not believe…” (Background article published in Glas Koncila, Zagreb, 5 May 1996)

  17. No, No, moment: if Bishop Forte (that as well ..) did not recognize the gifts of Fr.. Tomislav did well: on the former p. Vlašić read this text from 2009 of the bishop of Mostar on the website of the diocese: https://www.md-tm.ba/clanci/il-contesto-del-fenomeno-di-medjugorje-i
    And in 2009 the former friar was only a sinner contra sextum, disobedient, capita.. but now it is schismatic: would be one of 49 members of a Central Core (?) charge (with other nuclei on various planets!) to convert the universe, with a girl
    OK, DO NOT BELIEVE THE BISHOP: in THIS VIDEO of 49 THE FRIAR SPEAKS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=2W45cIHfja0&feature=emb_logo
    And he is the one who gives 1981 to the 1984 he managed the visions as the spiritual father of the visionaries and which the Gospa would have recommended.
    It is not a turning point: BEFORE the apparitions this friar was linked to Pentecostal groups where this and that had been predicted. We are in a new age climate, as it is (from a scientific point of view) the aesthetics of Medjugorje.
    The reality of the apparitions doesn't matter to me, I'm interested in the historical reconstruction of events: pre-istoria (= Herzegovinian question); new age experiences; confused experience of kids (at the beginning they are confusing); rush to Medjugorje afterwards 4 days, the 29 June of Fr.. Vlašić who takes everything under control; its influence. The sequel, money, hotels, gossip etc.. it is not strange, as radio-Maria, pilgrimages (my parents went there too), sun dancing. Theological stuff or gossip, but the facts are facts.
    Nobody studies, commissions…

  18. Of, just to point out. L'exp. Tomislav is not only a heretic and schismatic, and in fact the diocese of Brescia warned the followers who risk the interdict (the matter would be that one is outside the Church and deprived of the sacraments). https://www.bresciatoday.it/attualita/ghedi-santuario-ufo.html
    Make yours (and them; yo for you. I am excommunicated ipso facto by the German Bishops' Conference for not having paid Kirchensteuer – 8 billions per year – as a German taxpayer: in the tax return I crossed out “religion none” x do not pay it; and I'm unrepentant).
    Rather (objectively) 1) or the p. Tomislav is ignorant of theology, or 2) both he and Our Lady are, third party:
    I explain. The 6.05.1982 the friar writes in his Chronicle (verified): a seer asked the Madonna if the blessed in heaven are present in soul or in soul and body. Our Lady would have answered “the second you say”. He reports it without comment. Even children know that the resurrection of bodies occurs at the end of time, while now the blessed have the beatific vision, but they are souls.
    Therefore, O:
    1) a seer was wrong to report (capita), but the spiritual director had to correct him or at least write that he was wrong: not having done so, the director himself is as ignorant as a GOAT (nice guide).
    Otherwise:
    2) Our Lady made a theological mistake (!) and the director didn't notice: Madonna, visionaries and director all ignorant as goats.
    P.S. I speak of objective elements of theology, non disquisisco: SURVEY.

    1. He does very well not to pay Kirchensteuer, until the German Catholic Church continues to behave like a company.
      Thanks for your comment.

    2. All the contradictions that emerged in this and previous articles on the Medjugorie farce , they are enough and they advance to close that circus . In the Vatican they know it. But I'm afraid they don't know how to handle the predictable reaction of the millions of faithful gospari . Don Ariel is right when he highlights the fact that he should have intervened with a steady hand from the beginning . Instead, they have let it go and now the phenomenon with a worldwide following is unmanageable. It is not a sanctuary but a parish but "in fact" have allowed it to function as a sanctuary. It is a mistake to have allowed official Marian pilgrimages to be made, albeit with the distinction of not connecting them to pseudo apparitions. In fact, they made the idolatrous gospari leap forward . Worrying.

  19. Here too we have a priest who behaves in one way and his bishop in another (unlike other bishops outside Italy):

    https://www.adnkronos.com/fatti/cronaca/2020/04/25/parroco-multato-mio-caso-coi-carabinieri-chiesa-finisce-parlamento_el23iURiE9ojgGr7W0HosN.html?refresh_ce

    However, it remains to be seen which of the two actually gives the example of Christian witness…
    For Medjugorje, I observe that it was not exactly healthy to invent such a story under a communist regime that had already bloody persecuted the Church. And it is bizarre to find it impossible to predict wars that actually happened when no one expected them. And I find it irrational to say: all the fault of Satan, then God also converts people. So we make fun of God himself, that would use a farce for so long. Marian apparitions without formal recognition are galore over the centuries. Objection: they have been in Medjugorje for too long. So what? Our Lady also spoke to Laus years later. At last, I don't find anything satanic in this message: https://www.papaboys.org/medjugorje-messaggio-della-gospa-25-aprile-2020-a-marija-non-permettete-che-la-prova-indurisca-il-vostro-cuore/

    1. One of the main speakers of the modernist heresy, the Roman presbyterian Ernesto Buonaiuti, later excommunicated and finally discharged from the clerical state, in 1930, three years before Adolf Hitler came to power, predicted the outbreak of a worse and more bloody second world war than the first and prophesied that Germany would be the cause. And that war broke out, initiated by Germany which in 1939 invaded Poland.
      According to her, this is not enough to beatify Ernesto Buonaiuti and with him modernism?
      I applied the exact same logical criterion as his.

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