Medjugorie and the Gospa of the liars: reasonable doubts about the apparitions and self-styled seers
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Thank you for your great work in seeking the truth, I admire Father Ariel very much, I am a firm supporter of the great lie of medjugorje.
The only god one adores there is money.
I hope to meet her one day.
A hug Max
good morning.
Thank you for the very enlightening and thoughtful conversation.
1) I think the Pope is right in saying that the first apparitions may be authentic.
It does not seem possible that ten to fifteen year old boys questioned by the police of a Communist country could refuse to deny the apparitions. Perhaps they were truly convinced that they had met the Queen of Peace.
2) Among the fruits of the apparitions, many claim there are conversions. I have friends who have been to Medjugorje and converted. Except that once they returned to Italy they resumed the same life as before and when I told them that it would be very nice to continue a life of prayer by approaching the sacraments, they did not answer me.. And I fear that there are many like them.
Thanks again and good luck with your work.
Maximum
I have always believed in Medjugorje (from the 2005 about when I got interested), but lately I have the same doubts as you (amzi you have no doubts).
A little’ because’ and, the messages all seem more or less the same to me (but what do I know, I wouldn't dream of accusing Our Lady), a powder’ because’ these are the only seers in history who have made money (it is not’ a fault…but’ e’ still the first time the seers haven't had from “suffer” like the others), and much more for the accusations against the bishop (when Our Lady has always said to obey in other apparitions).
Said this, I've been to Medjugorje. Let's go beyond the fact that I had a great time and really breathed a feeling of “Paradise in Earth” (let's go further why’ I accept the idea that it may have been just my feeling).
If and’ all false, I would like someone to explain the miracle of the sun to me.
During the apparition (about 18:30), without a cloud in the sky and in June, me and everyone who was present, we could see the sun with the naked eye, pulsing and rotating back and forth. As it began to rotate or throb you could hear the roars of the people, so everyone saw that’ that I was seeing at the same time.
You could watch it without sunglasses and there were no clouds to mitigate its brightness.
Until before, and after the end of the apparition, it was impossible to look at the sun without ruining your eyes, not even with two pairs of glasses, it was just too blinding.
Here is this and’ my testimony…
Rereading all the messages of Our Lady of Medjugorje I do not find them banal at all , in most of them she invites us tirelessly to pray and this is what counts and which unfortunately is lacking more and more today . Jesus himself was continuous prayer and prayer is a grace that nourishes faith.
The priest in the video expresses his reasons , which can cause perplexity and which I still want to respect , but serenity and talk do not shine through from the soul , even if it would like to be , he is not calm and detached.
What matters is prayer as it is asked of us , from here everything starts , for the rest I would say that prudence is needed until the church expresses a final judgment ; if we allow ourselves to intervene earlier, even going so far as to deny Medjugorje, who knows we could not put ourselves in a position to sin against the Holy Spirit as well as lead other faithful astray ?⁷
Ciao , a warm greeting from Umberto who prays every day for all the Priests as Our Lady asks.
I just wanted to tell you if you saw Paolo Brosio at the big brother and at the court he did to a young woman and many other things. Who has faith and believes does not behave such a good day.
Finally someone who defines the “messages” for those who are: trivial and repetitive.
40.000 “heavenly messages” to say anything. But, saying it well. And such is the conclusion of the commission's work: maybe yes, maybe not. And it took 4 years to say nothing? And therefore, let the party continue…
He knows why the Church has never spoken? Because the Medjugorje phenomenon is too popular and powerful and because it would take away a large chunk of its own from the church itself “clientele”. Masking everything behind that “molasses” which is given the name of “prudence”
I would like to add only this.
As a fefele and a member of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, I consider it a duty that your hierarchy, by virtue of mamdato I will confer upon you from Christ, express himself clearly and without compromise on the truthfulness or falsity of the alleged apparitions and of the phenomenon as a whole, if necessary, expressly prohibiting the dissemination and disclosure, from that moment on, of the alleged Marian messages. This has happened, eg, lately, with the messages disclosed by the alleged seer Edson Glauber (which is also disobeying) regarding the alleged apparitions of the Madonna of Itapiranga (where is that, Furthermore, there was and still exists a decree of the now deceased bishop Carillo Gritti, which authorizes the erection of the sanctuary and its worship).
It is the duty of the Church, in conclusion, intervene officially and peremptorily on these phenomena, as regards the salvation of souls, to whose care and pastoral guidance he is responsible. From any point you look at it, At that time, the Medjougorije affair lends itself to multiple criticisms, that the attitude of the Church does not attenuate, rather, strengthens, being able to contribute to a dangerous confusion “spiritual” in. many faithful, albeit of good will and faith, precisely. 40 years of time have passed are too many and it is time for the Church to issue His sentence: as authentic Catholics we will make up for it, whatever it is.
Here too we have a priest who behaves in one way and his bishop in another (unlike other bishops outside Italy):
https://www.adnkronos.com/fatti/cronaca/2020/04/25/parroco-multato-mio-caso-coi-carabinieri-chiesa-finisce-parlamento_el23iURiE9ojgGr7W0HosN.html?refresh_ce
However, it remains to be seen which of the two actually gives the example of Christian witness…
For Medjugorje, I observe that it was not exactly healthy to invent such a story under a communist regime that had already bloody persecuted the Church. And it is bizarre to find it impossible to predict wars that actually happened when no one expected them. And I find it irrational to say: all the fault of Satan, then God also converts people. So we make fun of God himself, that would use a farce for so long. Marian apparitions without formal recognition are galore over the centuries. Objection: they have been in Medjugorje for too long. So what? Our Lady also spoke to Laus years later. In the end, I don't find anything satanic in this message: https://www.papaboys.org/medjugorje-messaggio-della-gospa-25-aprile-2020-a-marija-non-permettete-che-la-prova-indurisca-il-vostro-cuore/
One of the main speakers of the modernist heresy, the Roman presbyterian Ernesto Buonaiuti, later excommunicated and finally discharged from the clerical state, In the 1930, three years before Adolf Hitler came to power, predicted the outbreak of a worse and more bloody second world war than the first and prophesied that Germany would be the cause. And that war broke out, initiated by Germany which in 1939 invaded Poland.
According to her, this is not enough to beatify Ernesto Buonaiuti and with him modernism?
I applied the exact same logical criterion as his.
Mister Ariel, you wrote kilometers of words about Medjugorje and really the stomach does not hold up !
Heavy criticism of visionaries and also of Paolo Brosio.
A lot of wasted energy!
L’ love of God does not cross hearts full of stakes !
Be careful because in the near future there will be seven punishments and the wicked will have what divine Justice requires.
On the contrary, the good and the bearers of all good ,they will have nothing to fear.
She expresses herself as this gentleman in the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMw-tZixliI
Ah, just to point out. L'exp. Tomislav is not only a heretic and schismatic, and in fact the diocese of Brescia warned the followers who risk the interdict (the matter would be that one is outside the Church and deprived of the sacraments). https://www.bresciatoday.it/attualita/ghedi-santuario-ufo.html
Make yours (and them; yo for you. I am excommunicated ipso facto by the German Bishops' Conference for not having paid Kirchensteuer – 8 billions per year – as a German taxpayer: in the tax return I crossed out “religion none” x do not pay it; and I'm unrepentant).
Rather (objectively) 1) or the p. Tomislav is ignorant of theology, or 2) both he and Our Lady are, third party:
I explain. The 6.05.1982 the friar writes in his Chronicle (verified): a seer asked the Madonna if the blessed in heaven are present in soul or in soul and body. Our Lady would have answered “the second you say”. He reports it without comment. Even children know that the resurrection of bodies occurs at the end of time, while now the blessed have the beatific vision, but they are souls.
So, O:
1) a seer was wrong to report (capita), but the spiritual director had to correct him or at least write that he was wrong: not having done so, the director himself is as ignorant as a GOAT (nice guide).
Otherwise:
2) Our Lady made a theological mistake (!) and the director didn't notice: Madonna, visionaries and director all ignorant as goats.
P.S. I speak of objective elements of theology, non disquisisco: SURVEY.
He does very well not to pay Kirchensteuer, until the German Catholic Church continues to behave like a company.
Thanks for your comment.
All the contradictions that emerged in this and previous articles on the Medjugorie farce , they are enough and they advance to close that circus . In the Vatican they know it. But I'm afraid they don't know how to handle the predictable reaction of the millions of faithful gospari . Don Ariel is right when he highlights the fact that he should have intervened with a steady hand from the beginning . Instead, they have let it go and now the phenomenon with a worldwide following is unmanageable. It is not a sanctuary but a parish but "in fact" have allowed it to function as a sanctuary. It is a mistake to have allowed official Marian pilgrimages to be made, albeit with the distinction of not connecting them to pseudo apparitions. In fact, they made the idolatrous gospari leap forward . Worrying.
No, no, moment: if Bishop Forte (that as well ..) did not recognize the gifts of Fr.. Tomislav did well: on the former p. Vlašić read this text from 2009 of the bishop of Mostar on the website of the diocese: https://www.md-tm.ba/clanci/il-contesto-del-fenomeno-di-medjugorje-i
And in 2009 the former friar was only a sinner contra sextum, disobedient, capita.. but now it is schismatic: would be one of 49 members of a Central Core (?) charge (with other nuclei on various planets!) to convert the universe, with a girl
OK, DO NOT BELIEVE THE BISHOP: in THIS VIDEO of 49 THE FRIAR SPEAKS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=2W45cIHfja0&feature=emb_logo
And he is the one who gives 1981 al 1984 he managed the visions as the spiritual father of the visionaries and which the Gospa would have recommended.
It is not a turning point: BEFORE the apparitions this friar was linked to Pentecostal groups where this and that had been predicted. We are in a new age climate, as it is (from a scientific point of view) the aesthetics of Medjugorje.
The reality of the apparitions doesn't matter to me, I'm interested in the historical reconstruction of events: pre-history (= Herzegovinian question); new age experiences; confused experience of kids (at the beginning they are confusing); rush to Medjugorje afterwards 4 days, the 29 June of Fr.. Vlašić who takes everything under control; its influence. The sequel, money, hotels, gossip etc.. it is not strange, as radio-Maria, pilgrimages (my parents went there too), sun dancing. Theological stuff or gossip, but the facts are facts.
Nobody studies, commissions…
“… Therefore neither the bishops, nor does the Pope himself have the authority to reach the conclusion that the Virgin really appeared here, but they don't even have the authority to prevent the faithful from believing it. The Magisterium of the Church is absolutely irrefutable only when it affirms that something is or is not in the ambit of that Revelation that the Church received until the end of the apostles' era, found in the Bible and transmitted. What is not included in the Bible and in the teachings cannot be proclaimed by the magisterium of the Church doctrine of the faith, nor content of a mandatory faith. Therefore only naive people can expect bishops to resolve the Medjugorje issue so that we know exactly what we should or should not believe…” (Background article published in Glas Koncila, Zagreb, 5 May 1996)
In my view, all the deduction arguments reported in the article are not directives to demonstrate that “appeared the” is not the Madonna. I would like to limit myself to the most abused:
– the luxury in which the visionaries would live. Madonna – as long as it's you, of course – chose these guys like “Apostles of my Love” and told them that they were free to make the lifestyle choices they desired (religious or double) following one's morally legitimate vocation. Having these children dedicated their lives to the apostolate of the Gospa, and given that the Lord said that the worker has the right to his reward, I don't find anything unseemly if, as fathers and mothers of the family, have continued to do what they have been doing since the early years (that is, hosting pilgrims in their home), building over time also a hotel from which to draw a source of subsistence, as well as all the inhabitants of Medjugorie. This circumstance cannot be used to speak of merchandise without doing the same with the religious paccottiglia shops in Piazza S. Pietro and with all the religious reception facilities for pilgrims in Rome or elsewhere.. And she too, Ariel, speaks of God on this site to earn a living without me having anything to complain about, rather, that God deserves it.
– the abuses perpetrated by some friars. If anything, this would be proof in favor: Father Amorth said that where the Madonna appears there is always the devil. Sins and abuses in the Church have never scratched my faith in it, why should I use this argument against Medjugorie now?
«And you too, Ariel, speaks of God on this site to earn a living without me having anything to complain about, rather, God give him credit ".
If I waited to live, or to be able to do only the food shopping of the strictly necessary, like bread and milk, with the proceeds of the site of this magazine to which my brothers and I devote time and energy for the building up of the People of God, I could easily be going to starve.
Readers are very numerous, visits amount to about / over ten million per year, but the offers that reach us very few and us, contrary to Father Livio Fanzaga, we don't ask for money every two hours of transmission. There are account details on the home page, if anyone wants to help us help us.
I 4.000 annual euros for the domain, or so-called server provider, my mother paid them again this year, because through our many readers we have not collected them.
But, if I, after all, do not write badly and do not even fail to be convincing if necessary, I declared to see the Madonna one day and one no, who are the custodian of secret trembles on the future of humanity and so on, I would have already raised several hundred thousand euros.
Unfortunately, when people are offered the truth, which is often also quite bitter, money never comes.
Stefano, he intends to continue with these speeches and with these examples, one more unhappy than another?
Peter gentile, thanks for your reply. Meanwhile, I would like to tell you that faith has nothing to do here, nor is any act of faith in the apparitions due. Here only the reasons for credibility of the phenomena taking place in Medjugorje are discussed.
And I don't understand how, after 40 years and after the authorization of pilgrimages by the Church, it can still be said on the basis of an equivocal message, that in Medjugorje the Madonna supports the devil, that is, the devil appears to appear. If it's him, it must be converted, since it invites to prayer, to fasting, to confession, on returning to the Church, to the Rosary in the family, to pray for sinners, for the sick, for the distant, for priests, for the Pope, etc, etc, and that to these invitations people respond with a stream of conversions that cannot fail to remember what flows from the side of the temple in the prophecy of Ezekiel.
If the times we live do not have all the characteristics of the last times, if not exactly the end of time, perhaps Medjugorje would lose much of its credibility and spiritual attraction, ma, in the present circumstances, these stand out as against the light. The Madonna is here since 40 years not for messages, but to pray with us to be able to prepare ourselves for a test that the most vigilant spirits feel impending and that cannot be overcome without a reawakening of faith.
On the presumed conflict of interest of the visionaries I have already said that it is a claudicating argument, e, Anyway, it did not exist at the beginning and for many years to follow.
Mr. Stefano, you really can't see a conflict of interest in doing the “clairvoyant” and the hotelier for pilgrims devoted to the apparition that he himself would receive? This you believe is morally legitimate? Let me, but I would have at least reservations about it. Then, excuse me, I understand that where the Madonna appears there is always the Devil ... the problem is that according to his reasoning the alleged appearance would support the Devil rather than oppose him, Since, instead of rebuke the dissident friars, would support them. If this would be evidence in favor of the truthfulness of the apparitions of Medjugorie, then I doubt that the Blessed Virgin appears.
For real, with fraternal frankness, I tell her that in order to believe this matter, reason must be completely turned off. And you know that faith, not supported by reason, it is not really faith.
Sorry Fr. Ariel,
here you criticize in a very open way p. Livio Fanzaga as a supporter of the apparitions of Medjugorie in the absence of an official pronouncement of the Church; but then he makes an article like this in which he issues his personal definitive pronouncement, always in the absence of a formal pronouncement of the Church.
I think that in the absence of a pronouncement by the Church, both positions should remain legitimate, ma, instead, it seems that for her the supporters of the truthfulness of the apparitions are “fanaticos” of a new religion that even apostrophizes contemptuously “madam medjugorian”, except then complaining about the insults he receives in return.
Then I ask you: if then, for school hypotheses, the church, of which you still want a pronouncement (ma, I guess, just because he thinks he already knows him) should instead recognize the authenticity of the apparitions, there is nothing that would change everything he wrote? Are, as I think, the answer is no, because she only relies on certain facts, it does not run the risk of finding itself in an insoluble logical-rational conflict with the Church? Thank you
Before a comment like yours, anyone would do the simplest thing: delete it without even finishing reading it. E’ the least that anyone would do with anyone who claims the right not to reason, distorting every speech and every explanation I gave in 45 minutes of explanations recognized as precise and clear even by people – intellectually honest – who think quite differently from me.
But she doesn't know what the reasoning is, critical sense and above all intellectual honesty. So, like the lower league sophists, takes concepts that I clearly expressed, it distorts them making them unclear and then tries to turn them against me.
I told her that anyone would just cancel, but not me, than towards the people of God, even towards the most stubborn and unreasonable sheep, I have moral and pastoral obligations.
In an awkwardly sophisticated way, you first of all put on the same identical plane “authenticity” e “not authenticity” defining both “personal opinions”, by grasping grotesque that, since the Church was not pronounced, everyone can think of it as they please and in a completely legitimate way.
To all this she adds the worst thing ever, or: the trial to my intentions, presuming and imagining that I even know what I think !? Here is what he writes …
"Then I ask you: if then, for school hypotheses, the church, of which you still want a pronouncement (ma, I guess, just because he thinks he already knows him) should instead recognize the authenticity of the apparitions, there is nothing that would change everything he wrote?»
All expressed, in the end he asks me if, in case of possible recognition, I could not then run the risk of finding myself "In an insoluble logical-rational conflict with the Church".
Well I ask you: but she, exposed everything and in the way he exposed it, he really thinks he can even appeal to logical and rational criteria?
Now, I don't expect much from life, But, a minimum of respect for my human intelligence, just the minimum union necessary, that yes, I pretend, because I believe I owed it.
… because it doesn't quote the whole article in full?
Because the first part says more, compared to what she would like him to say with this cut piece.
Just Dorotea and thank you father Ariel. I have been following her for some time and this is a very gratifying surprise for me. Me too, by secular, I try to shed light on the facts of Medjugorje and often I am surprised at the people I talk to. Unfortunately, many people take it for granted that the apparitions are true but that the Church cannot pronounce because the phenomena are still underway. And this is where I leverage the Zara declaration of 1991 ( that I hoped she would mention ). This marked a stance, albeit temporary, when he said that on the basis of the investigations carried out it was not possible to say that these were supernatural phenomena. Even the question of pilgrimages had already been resolved by card. Bertone when he said they were admitted on condition that they were not a’ authentication of the phenomena. I realized that the refutation ( by the two great bishops who succeeded Mostar towards the alleged apparitions) it is also supported by documented online publications of some serious scholars of the phenomenon . and this is useful because someone thinks that if the church doesn't approve, it is the church that is wrong ! As if it were the apparition that authenticated the’ Authority, and not vice versa ! I am with you ( and with her are many priests ). Thank you father.
Dear Father Ariel,
I saw his video and I fully agree with his reflection made by a good shepherd who tries to authoritatively recall the poor faithful to reasonableness. Among other things, I speak as a convinced ex-Medjugorian, fed by years of Radio Maria and pilgrimages. Then from 2015 I started to have suspicious claims and for consistency's sake I investigated until I came to its own conclusions with bewilderment and suffering. True faith is truly something else and even the same devotion to Mary Most Holy implies a very different respect as the Saints have always taught us. I believe the good Lord really exorcised me from this false devotion, with all due respect to those who believe in good faith.
In conclusion, I believe we are in the era in which “power of deception”, as Saint Paul calls it (2Ts 2,11), is at its peak; only those who remain firm in true faith in Jesus Christ, in true devotion to the Heavenly Mother and in the teachings of the fathers and saints she can proceed immune and safe.
regards
Dear Daniele…Reading your comment I have not found all “appearance ” nothing illogical until I remembered to activate my faith and rereading it I felt the smell of burning…I state that I have made several pilgrimages but that I am not one “Medjugorje” as with this term you can only define a subject taken from a science fiction novel set in Medjugorje. As you should well know from “convinced” Our Lady in Medjugorje does not come to teach us the faith, but rather he comes to reawaken faith towards Christ and his Apostolic church comes for himself, as you say,now you understand that true faith is something else,it means that before your faith was dead or dead…And then this is the grace of Medjugorje and this is the great miracle…Now you are back to true faith, Viva, taught by the Church of Christ. Read:Luke 17: 11-19. I give you some advice:make one last pilgrimage to Medjugorje,get on your knees and thank Our Lady for making you take this path of faith in the grace of God. Thank her, because that's the least it deserves…DON'T DO AS YOU LIKE 10 HEALED LEBBROSIS. Return to thank,then feel free to abandon,evaluate and judge the apparitions. As for the good God I don't think it was an exorcism as the devotion you had before you have it now, that is, you always profess the APOSTOLIC BELIEVE. Beware of exorcisms,they don't always free on the first try,I have seen people freed,other non-Catholic non-Marian women not released…
What I don't like about this article is that, while the Magisterium teaches that believing or not believing in Medjugorje absolutely does not call into question the Catholic faith, breathless to all those hard and pure who would like all the excommunicated “superstitious bigots” who look at Medjgorje thoughtfully and without any fanaticism.
… as proof that you have not seen the video, or if he saw it he didn't listen to it, because it imputes what I have not said, seen that four times in 45 minutes I repeated, explained and clarified that many people, visiting that place and going to it to pray, have regained faith, they went back to the Church and changed their lives. And I expressed everything by saying and repeating that "everything is indubitable".
I must take note that there is like a mental anteroom designed to filter the writings of others “the use of dolphins”: I give up!!!
No!
Orenzo,
the Church and her Magisterium say nothing but believe in unapproved apparitions (and therefore in Medjugorje) be the same, but it teaches that not believing those approved does not incur any excommunication, as long as they are not denigrated or denied … Marian dogmas!
As you say it, instead, it would seem that Medjugorje is approved, but this is not the case and there are many Medjugorians who also speak of a sanctuary when the church of San Giacomo is only a parish, and that's all Father Ariel is trying to explain, without going into the personal merit of the individual people who crowd that place.
Card. Cookbook', president of the Yugoslav Episcopal Conference, at the end of the meeting held in Zadar since 9 on April 11 1991 he declared: «We Bishops, after three years of studies conducted by the appropriate Commission, we welcomed Medjugorje as a place of prayer, as a sanctuary… As for the supernaturality of the apparitions, we said that for now we cannot say that it exists; we still have important reservations. Therefore we leave this aspect to further investigation. The Church is in no hurry »… then Yugoslavia collapsed e, perhaps, it didn't seem true to someone to take a few pebbles from their shoes after being caught in the face…
About this topic
I recommend for those who have not done so
The conference of Prof. D'Amico
https://youtu.be/5pOydQTDrFU
With all due respect : indeed painful I emphasize and underline: P-E-N-O-S-A.
For a level playing field in order not to appear "biased" ( I tend to believe in the truthfulness of Medjugorie but with many "reservations" and all subordinate to the opinion of the Church ) I say that there are equally painful testimonies in favor of Medjugorje.
But this of the D Amico is really painful …..
@Father Ariel
Dear Don Ariel, this was written by you :
"Expensive Antonio,
she doesn't have to take it and write all the posts she wants because she will always be a welcome guest. "
——-
I sent a post but another idem did not appear and thinking that maybe there is a technical problem I sent another repeating myself in the concepts .
The only one that has appeared is this.
If there is a technical problem, I ask otherwise, I can kindly ask you what is wrong with those four things I wrote , given that there is no arrogant tone , nor insults , nor saccenteria ( they are also rather badly written since I write from I Phone) , neither arrogance nor anything else.
Thank you
Greetings
dear antonio,
but he is convinced that he has sent messages?
We have only received this to which we are replying.
It may be that he wrote the text without giving “sending”?
Because they didn't come to us.
If you send them we insert them.
Thank you Father Ariel,
I agree 100% with what you said in your impeccable analysis.
If I can, I have two questions for which I would be honored to receive your answer, if you think you can help me.
1) because Father Amorth with his statements, it gave credibility to the Medjugorje phenomenon (unlike other exorcists), strengthening the credibility of the visionaries before the church gave an opinion (thus contravening the opinions of the bishops)?
2) what do you think of the alleged apparitions of the Virgin in Anguera (considering also that the Medjugorians become intractable when Anguera is named)?
Thank you Father if you can and will answer,
Best wishes
there, l
estimated P. Ariel,
I am not clear about this fury against Our Lady of Medjugorje, who has been talking for many years perhaps because she is the only one who still says Catholic things (like the call to prayer and fasting); if the hostility is based on the lifestyle of the visionaries it is not a proof xchè even the Christ had no horror to leave his body for burial at 2 rich men and it is not a fault to be.
I don't know if this phenomenon is true but it doesn't seem important to me, I'm almost 40 years that lasts (like the crossing of the Jewish people in the desert), why not wait for others 2 O 3 years to attack it when, missing the promised signs, there will not even be a need to do so as it has already been dissolved?
I do not understand this hatred and insistence when it seems to me that there are many others as well + serious problems to deal with
How to Claudia,
I answer by saying that “appearances” they started badly right away, indeed, Thursday 1st October 1981 the Gospa began by telling the visionaries these colossal heresies then put black on white in front of several witnesses as an authentic message given to “fortune tellers” from the Virgin Mary:
«All religions are equal before God. God reigns over them as the ruler in his kingdom. In the world, not all religions are equal, because people don't submit to God's commandments. They reject and denigrate them ».
Such an affirmation nullifies the entire mystery of salvation and the fact that Christ founded one, only and true Church. With a similar affirmation one sinks between religious relativism and the spiritualist tendencies of new age.
But above all it is a negation of our profession of faith in which we profess "I believe in the Church one, santa, catholic and apostolic ".
To say therefore that Our Lady of Medjugorje "is the only one who still says Catholic things", is a risky thing to say the least, as it is risky to say that "there are many other and more serious problems to deal with" while many of our good and naive faithful take words of this kind as authentic statements of the Blessed Virgin.
This is not about hatred, but to defend the truth from error, especially before the simple.
A curiosity: where you can find the message of October 1st 1981?
I searched and found that of the 10 October 1981 (“Faith cannot be alive without prayer. Pray more. " ) and that of 19 September 1981 (“Why do you ask so many questions? Every answer is in the gospel. "), but I can't find the one on October 1st anywhere 1981.
E’ collected in this book by Father René Laurentin
http://www.temponuovo.net/ar3/laurentin-mess-1981/raccolta-messaggi.jpg
However, that message, like others, later they canceled them, in the same way in which, two of “fortune tellers” in particular, they ran their diaries years later, forgetting that the original sheets of the messages they handwritten are still preserved in the archives at the Episcopal Curia of Mostar-Duvno
etc… etc …
I haven't read L
Entire content of the Ruini report but some extracts ( and where? On the internet of course….-;), I believe and suppose that we have scrutinized everything carefully ,all the more the original correspondence from the Curia . Because I think I have read ,in the extracts from the Ruini report , that there is no "manipulation" and if I remember correctly it is also stated that there is no diabolical influence . I repeat : I read excerpts from the relationship and I may have misunderstood .
There are no such statements in official messages.
Because , as a layman of theology, if in the messages attributed to Our Lady there appeared to be even one theological error , or an obvious manipulation , I seemed to understand that it automatically skips everything . Possible that squadron of ,seems, skilled theologians did not notice?
I remember comments where it was said that Our Lady asked to respect those who followed another religious creed because they too are her children and perhaps also that in other religions there may be fragments of Divine truth as reflecting the "desire for God" that God himself has placed in every human creature . But not putting other religions on the same level as the Christian Creed .
(Comment starts 1)
Thanks for the link why, not being particularly interested in Medjgorje, I don't even go looking for many things.
The question is: “All religions are good?”
I do not create create particular theological problems the second part of the answer which reads that “In the world, not all religions are equal, because people don't submit to God's commandments. They reject them and denigrate them.”
Instead, I believe that theological problems can be encountered, by some, in the first part: “All religions are equal before God. God reigns over them as the ruler in his kingdom. “
(Comment starts 2)
The CCC writes at No. 28:
“Throughout their history, and up to the present day, man's search for God has been expressed in many ways, through their beliefs and their religious behaviors (prayers, sacrifices, cults, meditations, etc). Despite the ambiguities they can present, these forms of expression are so universal that man can be called a religious being: God "created from one man all the nations of men, because they lived on the whole face of the earth. For them he established the order of the times and the boundaries of their space, to seek God, if they ever come to find it by groping, although it is not far from each of us. In fact, we live in him, we move and exist » (At 17,26-28).”
If it still wasn't clear why when asked if “All religions”, that is “the search for God by men… expressed in multiple ways, through their beliefs and their religious behaviors”, “THEY ARE GOOD?”
is answered that “All religions ARE EQUAL before God. God reigns over them as the ruler in his kingdom.”,
specifying, however, that in earthly reality, in the concrete practical implementation of the “search for God by men” “NOT ALL religions ARE EQUAL”,
adviser to open the CCC to search for at least another ten articles dealing with religions.
Drafting, (Comment starts 1) e (Comment starts 2) they are part of a single comment that I have divided in two because of the available characters.
If you published them as a single comment, the meaning of what I wanted to express would be better understood.
Thank you.
Where did the “Comment starts 2!?
It did not pass the scrutiny of the censorship because it contradicts what the boss said?
Which comment?
E’ sure I sent it?
I opened and here is the comment pending: I copy and paste and send it back:
(Comment starts 2)
The CCC writes at No. 28:
“Throughout their history, and up to the present day, man's search for God has been expressed in many ways, through their beliefs and their religious behaviors (prayers, sacrifices, cults, meditations, etc). Despite the ambiguities they can present, these forms of expression are so universal that man can be called a religious being: God "created from one man all the nations of men, because they lived on the whole face of the earth. For them he established the order of the times and the boundaries of their space, to seek God, if they ever come to find it by groping, although it is not far from each of us. In fact, we live in him, we move and exist » (At 17,26-28).”
If it still wasn't clear why when asked if "All religions", that is, "the search for God by men ... expressed in many ways, through their beliefs and their religious behaviors ", “THEY ARE GOOD?”
it is replied that “All religions ARE EQUAL before God. God reigns over them like the ruler in his kingdom. ",
specifying, however, that in earthly reality, in the concrete practical implementation of the "search for God by men" "NOT ALL religions ARE EQUAL",
adviser to open the CCC to search for at least another ten articles dealing with religions.
And, I'm sure I sent it, so much so that when I sent the 1 May, that comment, together with another, still appeared pending approval.
.
Assume that Our Lady always expresses herself (or expect it to express itself) for dogmatic definitions it seems to me a specious way of proceeding and not without preconceptions (how to demand that the Pope never speak out of hand). Indeed, to say that all religions are equal before God can very well be understood in the sense that all men are equal before God, regardless of their religion, you don't even need to apply the principle of charity in listening. The second sentence then leaves no doubt: “In the world, not all religions are equal”, and also explains why, “because people don't submit to God's commandments”. God's commandments are universal, that is, Catholics, that is, they concern all men of all religions. What would be the heresy? And where and when in the following 40 years Our Lady professed or spread a New Age faith? Who ever going to Medjugorje as a practicing Catholic later became his son of flowers? Please, let's be facts!
How to Claudia,
the Catholic Madonna would never have allowed lay people to disobey their Bishop!
Being rich is not a sin,but making money only with the Tourism of pseudo apparitions the question stinks.
Fasting and prayer also practice Orthodox,Jews and Muslims, but obedience to his Bishop in Communion with the Pope, it is the badge of true Catholics.
Look, the Catholic Madonna cannot prevent a bishop from disobeying God (I speak in general), and therefore it cannot even prevent a layman from disobeying a bishop. Beyond this, however, it is not possible to consider his argument conclusive because of the fact that, anyhow, it is more right to obey God than to men; for which reason it will be possible to say if there was real disobedience only if and when we will know if the Madonna spoke or not. Until then, in principle, the possibility that a visionary may disobey his bishop must be accepted.
I want to believe the good faith of the alleged seers, although I must admit that the article of Fr.. Ariel, very well done, pushes me in other directions. I ask, as I asked some “Medjugorians” : it can be excluded that they are demonic apparitions that may have misled those boys?
Here you approach what I wanted to say in the previous post ( but also in my post in the previous article on Medjugorie by Father Ariel).
My partner is local ( of Mostar ) the parents have experienced the whole story from the beginning ( like all the locals) , and experienced the tragedy of the war . With absolute certainty I can guarantee that there have been phenomena of a non-rational nature that transcend scientific reasoning and in fact cannot be fully explained : both in terms of the physical status of the presumed seers at the time of the so-called ecstasy , both external , both with documented healings ( hundreds) .
That's why with absolute certainty I exclude the bluff of the boys almost children ( 9 / 15 year old ) . Normal children and adolescents from normal families ( poor and poorly educated) . The first years have been persecuted by the communist police them and their families in all possible and imaginable ways yet they have not succumbed ( there may have been moments of contradiction or confusion under pressure from all sides crazy , but they went on ) . But do you really believe that it is possible for a child to 9 years as Jakov could have been a co-supporter of a deadly bluff like that? But let's not joke …
The "purely" human bluff is to be excluded .
Stay by exclusion:
– Divine supernatural intervention
-diabolical preternatural intervention
– initial Divine supernatural intervention with sliding into the diabolical falsehood ( for different reasons: betrayal of faith , enrichment…
Let's validate that it's all a bluff.
It remains to shed light on the inexplicable phenomena rationally occurred especially in the early years but even if with less intensity still today.
Excluding the supernatural of divine origin and the preternatural / diabolical mediumistic and leaving pure human bluff as a valid hypothesis ( brethren; fake seers). And they are not 4 healings and some flashing lights in the sky, but hundreds of different types, from documented healings that doctors can't explain, to the signs in the sky especially in the initial period (for example the luminous writing MIR that is "peace" in the sky testified by the locals, by pilgrims of different nationalities, even by the communist law enforcement agencies, to the fire in the Krizevac hill to find nothing after the arrival of the firefighters with even a helicopter who find nothing and no burn marks , at the cross krizevac which disappears and a woman's thinner is visible (testimony of thousands of people present) , to the pilot who tries and tries to throw bombs on the church and is then slammed and captured and says that he tried again several times but the monitor strangely darkened preventing him from aiming (he says so), to the guy the paralyzed BBC mentioned who walked down the mountain (but his back is still broken and the doctors are unable to explain how he can walk) etc., etc
As more than children did (9/ 15 year old) to organize and carry on such a thing?? As children they trained to produce everything…
Sorry the corrector has changed me a few words:
"Silhouettes" of a woman ( instead of the cross)
and plane abatutto instead of sbatutto .
I don't believe why, as she says “a paralyzed man came down from the mountain”, I believe because Christ was God incarnate, is dead, resurrected and ascended to heaven. That's why I believe, and in what, I believe.
Know therefore, if it wasn't clear to her, that the Church asks believers, as a prerequisite for being Christian-Catholic, to believe with certain faith:
1. in God the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth and of all visible and invisible things;
2. To the incarnation of the Word of God born of the ever Virgin Mary;
3. to death, resurrection and ascension to heaven of Christ;
4. to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son;
5. to the Church one, santa, catholic and apostolic;
6. the profession of a single baptism for the remission of sins;
7. to the resurrection of the dead and eternal life.
He finds all these things written in the Symbol of Faith: the I believe, that I suppose you act, but which I fear has not fully understood, or maybe not at all, consider the reasons and “prove” which leads in the form of a question.
This is the faith of the Church and this is what the Church requires in order to profess herself believers: the seven points that I have enunciated.
All the things that she tumbled, mi tip: what they add to our faith?
Even if they were true, they add something to our faith? Or by chance they serve somehow even and only vaguely to support it?
In short: to believe in the resurrection of Christ God from the dead, it is perhaps necessary to believe these alleged wonders that you listed and occurred in the “new Jerusalem” Of “Medjugorje”?
In conclusion: everything you listed, like it or not, it is completely irrelevant to keep the foundations of the Catholic Church and our Holy Faith standing.
And mind you I'm not saying it: the Church teaches it. So that, what I said to you as a priest, theologian and faithful servant of truth in the Church and for the Church, are not my opinions, but what the Church has been teaching for two thousand years.
And she, to me who believe with firm and solid faith in all the articles of faith that I have enunciated, perhaps he wants to convince me of things completely irrelevant to the existence of the apostolic Catholic faith?
In short … a powder’ of study of the Catechism of the Catholic Church would not hurt at all. Also because if it allows, anyone who reads his comment concealed behind series questions “or try to deny these amazing facts?”, then reading my answer below … well, any person with true sense and catholic faith, she immediately realizes that she needs to be catechized into Catholicism by me, it is not I who need to be catechized to Medjugorianism by you through tests that are not tests, because they do not serve the authenticity of faith, therefore they are and remain irrelevant. And that I do not say it, the deposit of faith and the perennial Magisterium of the Church teaches it.
Dear Father Ariel
I am "almost" offended by his reply (of which I share not the 100% my he 360%) . I was talking about something else ( and not of "faith in God" in relation to wonders, to the sensational : that faith is immature childish faith / straw fire , in the gospels many of that crowd that flocked "excited" by way of rock concert , from the miracles of Jesus and who praised him on Palm day a week later he screamed crucified before Pilate and mocked him while agonizing on the cross, that "part" of bogus believers equal identical to certain itchy potted by the straw faith excited by the sensational that punctually rush with an itchiness that has little to do with true faith : examples are seen in charismatic meetings or even in medjugorje or elsewhere where certain phenomena occur (by the work of God or Diabolica) , that "portion" of straw believers like yesterday crucified God after having acclaimed him today they re-transmit him after the pilgrimage or the "charismatic" meeting with healings and spectacular exorcisms , in "normal" daily life ( where we conquer paradise in the ordinariness of life where the extraordinary is absent) living a "de facto" pseudo-Christian daily life .
Agree with you, net that made me say things that I have not said .
I was talking about something else !!!
If you allow me I will do another post tomorrow without appearing intrusive.
I forgot : The "supernatural" intervention is part of the "pedagogy of God" ( Old and New Testament Docet) but it must be read correctly through the discernment of the Church which in the end while proceeding in an apparently contradictory way at the end gives the right sentence .
dear antonio,
not if he must take it and write all the posts he wants because she will always be a welcome guest.
Let me explain: on my Facebook profile there are over a thousand messages, in total they were beyond 1500, however a few hundred were canceled because they contained free and heavy insults to say the least harmful to the people who had written them, certainly not to whom they were addressed.
Dozens of messages have been written in which many people claim the veracity of the phenomenon based on extraordinary miracles, never ascertained by the Church, place that in 39 years the Church has never recognized a single miracle.
This alone was the reason for my response after receiving numerous such messages.
I Understand
I didn't know this , in the sense that I do not follow Facebook as for my choice I have never been a member of Facebook or a
Tweeter I don't have access to .
Having said and said that I tend to believe that at least initially the apparitions were authentic where by initially I mean much beyond the first 7 . Obviously, all with "reserve" is subject to the judgment of the Church ( the question is completely open : "De facto" there is no endorsement or condemnation of the first seven or of the subsequent ones , the commission more or less said that the former 7 they could be authentic and the rest leave the time they find , that is, it is equivalent to saying that the question is open…) while instead I am very, very perplexed for the Medjugorie of the last few years where I see a sort of degeneration even of the visionaries or better some things that leave me perplexed ( which are very well exposed by you: see L Ivan, the hotel structure of Marija , and three other things that clash with the status of seers etc).
For the rest I exclude purely human bluffing by the visionaries from a very young age ( 9 / 15) for a whole series of reasons that I explained in a post yesterday that didn't appear . In summary, even with the hypothetical maneuver of the manipulative friars they would not have withstood the pressure to which they were subjected by the authorities and by the communist family police including. And the problem remains that artificially we cannot build phenomena that cannot be explained scientifically and documented .
Greetings
In fact, it would be time for the Church to pronounce definitively on this banter. Not to mention the even worse phenomenon of Pedro Regis.
Dearest, I have always followed his sections and he does not always find me completely in agreement but on what is overwritten as for the previous articles on the subject, he finds me equally aligned with his theme. But I find that he always refrains from commenting on current affairs (the one worthy of attention) such as the last transmission of Reports and the comment of Avvenire, I would be curious to know his thought.
Thank you,
Giuseppe
“Of course, if the Church has pronounced several times and above all in a negative way, in the face of phenomena always in progress, crushing them if necessary from birth”.
Effectively, it does not appear that Sixtus V, is Papa tosto, waited for the end of the alleged bleeding to challenge the hatchet and pronounce the famous “like Christ I adore you, like wood I split you” …
Monsignor Andrea Gemma was right when he said that Medjùgorie was a scam to make money and that's it… …….You Father Ariel,what do you think of “charismatics ” like Ironi Spuldaro,that Paolo Brosio in his books venerates him and in some photos he has his hands laid on him despite being a layman? ……In these years Medjugòrìe has been the springboard for lay people or nuns who pretend to be healers,with an IDENTICAL style to Protestant pastors,also for this reason I have never trusted Medjùgorìe…… ……
Dearest father Ariel, what he wrote perhaps means that the alleged seers have corrupted the Ruini commission to make them declare that he believed the first seven Marian apparitions that took place since 24 June to 3 July 1981?
She specializes in bringing out what is not contained in the writings and making people say what they have not said.
I say what I said clearly, I have not even been remotely touched on what you ask.
Father Ariel Estimated,
thanks for this precise and merciless summary of a phenomenon on which I myself now have great doubts. The conference of Dr.. D'amico available on YouTube opened my eyes.
Allow me to propose a question that I had exposed in another post.
My whole childhood was marked by devotion to Medjugorie, where my mother went’ In the 1982, and where he said he attended the “sun miracle”. My mother is a practical spirit and I have no reason to think she lied or was hallucinated. His testimony is the only element that still prevents me from branding it all as quackery, or worse.
E’ It is possible to imagine that Satan could accomplish such a prodigy? E’ imaginable that God could allow him to deceive the faithful in this way? There are precedents for prodigious mass phenomena, of a diabolical nature?
Thank you for your attention
Another case in which the Madonna calls a bishop: “Our Lady told me that you have a stone heart”.
A day, we were in September 1995, Our Lady asked my daughter to inform the bishop about the apparitions.
We obeyed, but Bishop. Grillo chased Jessica out of accusation of telling lies. Then she scolded me and Anna Maria saying that we were conditioning her. But the next day Jessica returned to office: «Our Lady wants me to speak with the Bishop».
I was fought - I felt hurt, even angry, as we had been treated - but then I capitulated to the resolution of my daughter who at the time was alone 6 years and 5 months. The scene of the previous day was repeated in the bishop's house, but he was shocked by Jessica's leave: «Our Lady told me that you have a heart of stone». So Msgr. Grillo tested the Virgin, asking her to reveal to my daughter a secret known only to him.
And how it ended?
That Jessica later reported to him in the name of Our Lady not one but several facts concerning her person. Mons. Grillo was so upset that he was seized with an illness, as had already happened following the tearing in his hands.
But from that moment he also believed in the apparitions, as he revealed in his memorial published in 2011, and asked for an audience with John Paul II to report everything.
I remember that the Madonna of Civitavecchia was bought in Medjugorie.
Source: https://gloria.tv/post/HEwfSPWD2cwM1pgV9G8zg71D
… and she has no idea,with what respect and devotion, the De Gregori family of Civitavecchia, he behaved towards the Bishop?
Bishop Girolamo Grillo asked “a sign” in the same way as asked by the parish priest of Lourdes to Bernadette and by the Bishop to the shepherd children of Fatima.
Apart from this: she extrapolates a fact from my lecture and tries to use entirely irrelevant episodes, flying over what I treat to talk about something else.
So answer her a question: how it is possible for Our Lady to magnify, praise and support a Franciscan friar who was disobedient to the authority of the Church and her superiors against the Bishop, who had sexual relations in particular with a nun, which has failed in all ways to professed religious vows?
Answer: how is it possible that Our Lady of Medjugorie goes against the Bishop and speaks well and supports a man like that Franciscan priest, finally came out of the Catholic Church to found a new age millennial sect?
To this he must answer, do not panegiric about other facts or narrating that the Madonnina of Civitavecchia comes from Medjugorie.
Answer as possible, than Our Lady of Medjugorie, has argued with a sword like a subject.
Years ago I had looked at the story of Father Tomislav that initially was, as you tell in your precise reconstruction , very involved in the apparitions affair.
Then he came to Italy and founded a kind of community with that person in mind, to which perhaps you are alluding , which still continues to have messages ( to whom, I want to emphasize, I don't believe at all). I understand that until 2007 was in full communion with the Church.
The problems arise later because of the difficulty of accepting, by Bishop Bruno Forte, the very particular charisms of the seer and the community therefore dissolved.
I understand that Father Tomislav himself asked for a lay state discharge.
As you have often testified, telling us about some of the dark evils of the Church, where grace abounds, sin abounds, why not think (like I did) that simply Father Tomislav has been tempted and has given up? E’ an apostle who has betrayed, unfortunately one of the many.
I look forward to the continuation of your work.
“where sin abounds grace abounds”
The fact remains that in Medjougorije, except the overt cases of fanaticism, highlighted by the article, there is an air of great peace and prayer and that the fruits of conversion are now so many, .after 40 year old, not to be able to label everything as a colossal hoax. It seems ungenerous and too superficial. If it is true that God uses everything and every situation to bring men to himself, it seems strange to me that it allows such a prolonged evil deception (because of this it would be, otherwise). Moreover, argue that to date the church has not openly “rejected” the phenomenon as pure invention, moreover with the aggravating circumstance of futile personal reasons (their monetary interests, which incidentally would constitute hypotheses bordering on the crime of deception and fraud: I say this as a lawyer) per…I do not know…weakness? It seems to me, sincerely, who does not do a great service and honor to that same Church to which one of his servants should respect and obey. In short, even this article some doubt, on the contrary, he hints at me. What I mean is that it is not really a correct operation, let's say so, use the argument Church and ecclesial hierarchy to refute the phenomenon (the Madonna who stands – it would arise – against the bishop) and then minimize the circumstance that later 40 years the Church has not yet pronounced itself for a sentence, according to the author's thinking, that emerges from the article, it should be very obvious. That said, God and His Mother, with time and the light of the Holy Spirit, they will untie all the knots..
Thank you very much because you have clarified many things to me, because I didn't believe it so much. But since ever since the coronavirus pandemic, the messages are gone and they said that when the secrets came true they would have warned days before, from here it was clear to me that it was not true and I had doubts. And she made it all clear to me: a thousand thanks.
To be honest I told her to Maria Santissima that I was in doubt and she came to meet me through this video thanks again.
Naive bishop: these are not the proofs to ask because the devil also knows them. Indeed, if Civitavecchia had been the work of the Madonna it would not have stopped.
Medjugorje is a very complex fact that will only be explained at the end. Well, Papa did further investigations. Personally, I prayed to having Australian and New Zealand neighbors and I don't think they were there by chance. Anyway the solution is there: i 10 secrets will be promulgated by a priest who, he already has his own
beautiful age and I don't think he will live forever.. So there is little to dispute since there is a deadline and a method already described. Being an inquisitor will not help you understand, speak with Brosio who causes a lot of confusion and who knows the popular and devotional faith full of erroneous beliefs and who is therefore wrong to ask. I agree with you for Father Livio and his overflowing and medieval visions, but it also has the merit of having brought hope to many homes. To understand Medjugorje he has to talk to the guides of the early times, then he is able to go deeper. I believe it… But I don't believe in just spinning or other imaginative nonsense. I believe that Medjugorje is a great gift that will change the world forever and cannot be easily grasped by our traditional schemes.. For the rest… lose that attitude of a Papal State, the empire ended in 1870…so relax, she has nothing of her own and she is not even God. Her dress is also a gift. You are not a prince of the Papal State but a servant of Jesus Christ as we all are. But she has a few more responsibilities: the person Christi. Humility and expectation of the events that are not so far away will judge Medjugorje, not her or others. If that's not true, amen. Anyway I have believed in it for 24…
You are wrong.
I 10 amazing secrets will be revealed by these two famous and extraordinary seers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33bYzHSBUsk
….how sad…a young and intelligent priest who is reduced to this…..what an ugly "Beast" narcissism
Think instead of who has been reduced to believing her …
https://www.marcocorvaglia.com/ho-scelto-padre-petar-anzi-no