Legitimate doubts about the validity of the ordinations of homosexuals
– Theologica –
DOUBTS ABOUT THE LEGITIMATE VALIDITY OF ORDERS OF HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTLY
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You can not make peace in the consciousness merely public and severe proclamations, when in fact gay priests increased in proportion to the presence of bishops who reason with a latent homosexual psychology. Or to put it raw: some seminarians between the seventies and the eighties capeggiavano inside of the seminars Gay pious confraternity, Today they are bishops, and just become such, first they are surrounded by related parties, placed more and rigor in all the key posts in the diocese, traineeships. And these subjects, that protects and reproduce each other, they ended up creating a powerful lobby of power within the Church. The question which now arises concerns thus the validity of sacred ordination of subjects in whom appear increasingly absent the minimum requirements for the validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders, from the faith and the correct perception of the Catholic priesthood.
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Ariel S. Levi di Gualdo
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The Fathers ofPatmos Island They have decided to offer readers, in the section Theologica This online magazine, two short essays on a complex and sensitive issue on the theological and legal: about the actual validity of the ordinations of persons deprived of correct perception of the Catholic priesthood [cf. Giovanni Cavalcoli, OP see Article WHO]; and about the effective validity of priestly ordinations of candidates for sacred orders with structurally rooted homosexual tendencies [cf. Ariel S. Levi di Gualdo, article that follows below].
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To read the article click below:
07.07.2016 Ariel S. Levi Gualdo - DOUBTS ABOUT THE VALIDITY OF ORDERS OF HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTLY
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I wanted to compliment Father Ariel for his courage and determination in condemning this problem that is now obvious to all. The culprits, at this point, They do not even bother to disguise their tendency, and pretend nothing from those who could do something shameful! There is an elephant in the room (typical British expression that I find appropriate) and you pretend not to see. He has no idea, Father expensive Ariel, di quante “monsignorine” we are in’ Archdiocese where I live, first covered by a Bishop who was practically a prima donna and then from one whose ineptitude in government means that they continue their work undisturbed. But I wonder how you can complain about the decline in vocations, When, practically, They force the candidates to the priesthood to live in a gay village clerical, then make them go into a sanctuary of hyper-rahneriani and monsignorine? Naturally, there are honorable exceptions and holy priests, although they are a minority who counts on his fingers…
Forgive my long rein.
Only a note of erudition: the above mentioned legend of Pope Joan and the perforated chair for control tastatina, They have been admirably explained by Cesare D'Onofrio in “A woman on the Throne of Peter”, in which it is shown that the real root (on which Protestants and libertines intesserono perverse cackles) instead gloriously and theologically Catholic, pride and no shame for Holy Mother Church and its apostolic pastors.
And a sociological note: It will become increasingly difficult for the Church to defend their own laws that need to be unequivocally men (ordained in sacris, religious, groom) or women (bride, religious), and because too many no longer believe in and want to demolish, both because the legislation “civil” oriented gender will be increasingly intrusive and totalitarian. After much derided for the false Pope Joan, They will demand to impose a High Priestess Jessica.
Article illuminating.
For those interested to take a look at the situation of seminaries in America, consiglio la lettura di ” Goodbye, Good Men ” Michael S. Rose: reports and stories of lives over the years in seminaries 80 e 90.
Topics include those who in these pages the island of Patmos fathers make us read:
Gay substrate among seminarians, who he was not was strongly urged to approve and praise the sodomite behavior of seminarians and higher;
hatred of the Church's teachings, especially in reference to: Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, is considered obsolete;
conception of the Catholic priesthood, nuns (!) head of vocational discernment group of seminarians who wanted to be priestesses;
and moral teachings on sexuality.
Needless to say, many were discarded and sent to a psychologist just to be normal (heterosexuals too) and Orthodox. The dioceses where there were these seminars had and have very few priests, Instead Orthodox bishops sent their seminarians in certain seminars (obviously Orthodox) and they had many vocations. A chapter speaks well of the good work of the bishops who were able to turn the tables.
A chapter also talks about the good work of the bishops who were able to reverse disastrous situations: want is power.
For those interested can download it from who.
Very Rev. father ariel,
are in the ranks of those who read carefully the articles that, together all’ eminent Dominican Cavalcoli, write regularly on the site, and I must say I often find myself in the way “Garibaldi” (in the sense of the word!) she uses in his arguments. I intervene only to attestarle my respect and my thanks, because in the current situation it is necessary and urgent that someone deepens, puntualizzi and precise what the Gospel says, the Word of God and the Magisterium of the Church, to avoid being further confused. Riferendomi all’ intervento di “Out of the core”, I think that the author summarizes well the opinion that many have after reading “love joy” and not only, that of Law (to the sacraments, to mercy, alle unioni omosessuali…),without thinking that everything revolves around the sacramental life it is mainly related to the Gift (of Grace) and conversion. Maybe he will appear polemical, but I have serious doubts even for what concerns the’ interpretation of Mercy: if it is disconnected from the Truth and Justice, according to me remains only the buonismo, which it is not properly a positive feature!
Dear Reader.
I would really take it seriously and answer as seriously, then I try to do this by applying its own logic:
… e il sottoscritto, in the same way, as a "human being", He has the right to get a platinum blonde wig on his head, wear high heels from 15 cm. a tight-fitting suit and show up to the finals of Miss Italy.
You are free to comment on articles that say I have not even read until mid, but I have the moral and pastoral duty to remind you that first of all, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the priesthood is not a right, but a gift of grace wholly undeserved, while the Christian charity and mercy – according to Revelation and the deposit of the Catholic faith – mean the exact opposite of what she says.
As for the sexual tastes, on them I do not discuss, provided that an aspirant to the finals of Miss Italy, if anything, he was rejected, do not try to get their revenge and their own becoming a priest.
Excellent response dear Don Ariel.
My only fear is that what you're using as absurd as soon as absurd not to appear. After the Olympics where she jumped the difference males / females (I wonder why so far it just happened that the former gentlemen-say- They have claimed to compete with the women and not the other), come even beauty contests.
Beauty… but if I miss the more we know give a philosophical definition, that we want to know.
And they call “post modernity”.
Having said that thanks again to the two fathers for these articles that made me discover an embarrassing and scandalous situation of our Mother Church. I feel deeply offended, injured, by all this. I will pass…
A hug and a prayer.
I do not understand the long and bizarre confabulation of this article that I ceased to read even half. Every human being has the right to become a priest if he wants to, beyond what may be his sexual tastes, if mercy and Christian charity always mean something …
Guardi don Ariel, the issue is complex. A homosexual person is not automatically a bad person, Also we have to see how he lives his homosexuality, if in accordance with the Gospel and catechism, then as a particular condition experienced in chastity and turned into a cross and a sacrifice to offer to God for their salvation. For me there can be gay in the odor of sanctity and saints homosexuals, if their life was marked only the imitation of Christ. So among the many Catholic priests gay, because it must be said that there are so many, There may be good and holy priests who sacrificed their sexuality to serve Christ and the Church. Nothing remains that there are also bad homosexual priests, those who live a double life and fail to heal that wound they carry within. I am a traditionalist and I attend traditionalist circles and believe me, I've seen traditionalist priests with homosexual tendencies, not only for personal impression, but with clear proofs, out of which only four or five I can call them bad priests.
What I mean is that now the die is cast. The Catholic clergy is largely made up of latent homosexual, homosexuals aware, heterosexual confused, But what should we do? Espellere 1/3 clerical mass? instead, you must, in my humble and fallacious thinking, discern case by case, see how homosexuality is experienced by the individual priest, if according to the Word and the doctrine, and "judge" the person by works. If a priest spends his life ardently to bring souls to Christ with humility and succeeds well in this then I do not care whether it is homosexual or heterosexual, I do not care his sexuality care who do their jobs well, that fulfills its duties in accordance with the Church's tradition. Besides, no one has written on their foreheads "is gay". I would pass on to generalize because each person makes for himself and there can be good and bad, in homosexual as in heterosexual. I know very well a priest I know for sure being gay, it is conservative, and frankly it is one of the best priests I have met a Cure of Ars, not caccerei, but I would invite him to continue hoping for him homosexuality is not a problem, but it can turn it into a resource, to live it as the Catechism says, a special condition, sexuality, nor have, This deprivation and offer it as a sacrifice for their own salvation and souls.
Dear Reader.
She raises reasonable questions, all of them relevant on a logical level, formale e sostanziale, articulating speech also according to fair law criteria.
For this I am sure you will agree first that the “norma” It is created on criteria aimed at the general case as a general rule, not on the particular case; and those to whom she refers, They are mostly special cases, thank God there, and he has done very well to remember.
Come linea generale, or as a norm extended to all, the ban on the ordination of persons with homosexual tendencies should be categorical and absolute, and never excluding special cases, almost always very rare, that the Church has always considered with great caution. And not only with regard to this speech, but as for many other speeches, I make just a couple of examples to make the idea of what I mean:
1. a person with a serious physical handicap, You can not be ordained; but nonetheless, a bishop, He ordered a blind priest, who spent his whole life in the confessional and died with a reputation for holiness.
2. a neophyte converted to Catholicism, according to the standard can not be ordained; but even so we have cases of exceptions also very striking, for example, the late Archbishop of Paris, Cardinale Jean Marie Lustiger, Aaron was born to Polish Jews Ashkenazi, circumcised at birth, then converted to Christianity and baptized in 15 year old.
In my article, I do not speak of these particular cases, many of which are beautiful and also quite uplifting, of which I took the liberty – perhaps wrongly – to give totally granted the existence. In a space of 28 pages, in which you can not write a treatise that touches all the various facets of the very complex problem, I merely discourse on the cases of people who far from suffering from their condition and prepared for a sort of painful white martyrdom, want to live in a more or less brash his homosexuality within the Church, spreading within itself the homosexuality and along with it concepts totally aberrant morally, type those priests who claim, even when sacramental confession, that "homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality and to try to prevent people from expressing in this way their loving affection, It would be cruel '.
I would then enforce them, as far as good and often excellent effeminate, that today, the church, He lives under the eyes of the world, with the spotlight on him, in particular under this pontificate, which I believe should be a merit … at least, everything is centered and focused on the Holy Father! And that distracts – thank God! – many cameras that could be pointed elsewhere.
You will recall that under the last glimpse of Pope St. Giovanni Paolo II, and under that of Benedict XVI, there were cardinals and bishops who wandered from one talk show to another. Today they are all gone, although always existing, because maybe, er Papa Re, nobody wants that cast a shadow, or that steal the show, or the bullseye.
Well, My dear, I can tell you as an eyewitness – which in the past I wrote it in my book and in some of my articles – that certain pontifical of Benedict XVI were to embarrassing traits, because it happened to end up with a hundred ceremonies assistants who seemed just pulled off the Gay village. And those pontifical, I have often participated as a priest in charge to bring Communion to the faithful.
I could argue: "But you, these assistants ceremonies flickering, Perhaps you saw them busy in a bedroom or another where, while they were one above and one below a giocare al sender and al addressee?». Of course not, But, if Holy Mother Church wants to be under the spotlight of the eyes, which means also give a certain self-image, then, in my opinion, it would be good to avoid certain figures, placing rather in the spotlight, as masters of ceremonies assistants, a Nigerian team, Guinean, Ivorians and Congolese to their riempano input testosterone whole of St. Peter's Basilica even more than it can fill the aromatic fumes of incense.
And this must be considered, I think.
Rev. Dad,
I think it is necessary to clarify a passage of this his answer, as obvious.
Far from relating to the figure of the Holy Father, She mentions the embarrassment which was rather attributable to the Office of Papal Liturgical Celebrations, and his Master, and in particular those responsible for training, selection, training and selection of those “flickering” assistants: priests, deacons, or that they were ministering, and their interpretive gestures.
I have distinct opinions about the existence and actions of retired and reigning pope:
Pope Benedict XVI, gentle nature and hieratic figures, with grave and solemn sense of the sacredness of the role, favored liturgies, bishoply, ritual gestures and chants, harmonious, edifying and certainly long, all exclusively for greater glory of God.
Pope Francis uses instead liturgical modes less ceremonious, less rich, less formal, It has a verbal style, gestural and much drier behavioral, strictly essential, sometimes abrupt that seems to denote a markedly less humble. However, for the good of the Church, its action needs our prayers, As always asks.
Dear Ettore.
She pointed her what for me was a foregone conclusion, although you should never give, nowadays, nothing for granted.
Obvious, that the Pope did not even know the people in question.
The successful outcome of each pontificate in history, It is based on all of the employees of the Supreme Pontiff. For instance: the prefects of the departments select their collaborators, which in turn selects the collaborators collaborators …
If this mechanism, once based on the search for what is better and more qualitative was available within the Church, somehow gets stuck, you can end up with Secretaries of State “for case” ranging inopportune to release interviews Door to door Bruno Vespa or prefects of the departments which issue statements or sign documents inopportune. We all remember when, at the end of the pontificate of Benedict XVI, It was enacted under which Directive, any document of any department, before being made public had to be viewed in advance and approved by the State Secretariat.
Therefore, if the mechanism is jammed, and instead of the best Roman curia he begins to fill friends of friends of friends, It may end up being in situations such as that described by me, which depend neither the will nor the decisions of the Supreme Pontiff, whoever the successor of Peter.
Thanks fathers for further clarity. I have drawn the news on the site Aleteia believing that they were the subject, indeed I understand that are off-topic. So, comparing everything to our state's laws as if to meet the Constitutional Court to declare whether certain provisions are unconstitutional or not.
Fathers, when now I am aware that certain requirements may affect the ordination of any prelate and that the motivation is not only for serious sexual disorder, but also for other serious reasons, I have the right to doubt that my soul will not benefit from his sacramental acts?
Thanks and Santa night
Dear James,.
This is a question that deserves a clear answer, and to which answer with an example which should be exhaustive.
really happened Case: a transient deacon who worked in a hospital waiting for the sacred ordination, It was called by a dying family, Obviously he had no power and authority to administer the sacrament of anointing of the sick and with it a plenary absolution expected under the circumstances.
Around that sick, even in his sixties, There was an atmosphere of great tension and pain, by his wife and two daughters; and while the deacon was trying to explain that he could not … the oncologist told him this “look at the state of the patient and the people and regardless of power or no power, reassure them and brighten them”. The deacon recited the acquittal formula article died.
In a situation like this, They create two different objective problems:
1. first of all, absolution date, in addition to being unlawful it is quite Disabled, why the soggetto agente It lacks the degree of sacramental power;
2. one that attenta to Sacramento, or that simula a sacrament, in addition to incurring serious canonical sanctions, He can not receive sacred ordination.
The poor rushes by Bishop, It tells everything and then waits quietly for the severe sentence. The bishop embraced him and said,: "If things went well and if this was the situation, no doubt you were wrong, but completely free of bad faith and the intention to make an attempt at a Sacramento. Your acquittal is obviously invalid, but who received, convinced that you were a priest, it was still touched by the grace of God ".
The bishop then occurred, discretamente, that things were really went that way; ascertained that he found himself compelled in practice for the discussion related to the patient's family and all at a time when family members were uncontrollable and unable to think because they are blinded by grief and mostly because awed by the soul's eternal salvation of their relative who it was not exactly a saint … e pochi mesi dopo, the bishop ordained him priest.
Overflight of a fact that would require other treatment – this thing that I repeat often in my homilies or in Masses celebrated for the sick -, namely that the priest is called when the person is still alive, not to spray two holy water drops on a body, above which no one can say: "By the powers vested in me by the Apostolic See, I grant you absolution from all your sins …». But on the other hand, the incorrigible ignorance of a certain people ox, is convinced that if the patient sees the priest, scare you. What is not true, why never, no dying, He remained scared to see me get, rather, quite the opposite!
Several times it happened, especially among some women religious institution made up of some old nuns community, that some false priest celebrate Mass and administer confessions; but what also happened in parishes, or at some shrines, with a “priest of passage” which he was later found not to be a priest.
The penitent contrition which requested the remission of their sins, obviously convinced that that priest was really a priest, he still received the grace of God. Of course, once he checked the priest's falsehoods, you must repeat the confession, or for example to heal the marriage canonically, instead, however, that, the Sacrament, if you administer the spouses to each of them.
This is also why, noi sacerdoti, we are endowed by our bishops a “identity document” named “celebret“, to be presented at churches or shrines where we do not know, when we are on a journey or pilgrimage to places far from the places where we met.
Said this: if law, in conscience, doubts of a priest, if you choose another one, avoid creating doubts and confusion among the people of God, perché la questione, in itself and in itself delicate, does not touch the power of action of the faithful, that can – and must protest if necessary – but they certainly can not dismiss a priest. What this whole the responsibility of the Ecclesiastical Authority, on pain of eternal damnation of their souls, if aware, e tacessero not agissero.
Don Ariel, it would appear from this article http://it.aleteia.org/2015/10/20/polemica-gli-omosessuali-non-hanno-diritto-di-essere-sacerdoti/ already with Benedict XVI the problem has been addressed and resolved through careful selection of future priests. Those unfortunately have already ordered the chastity obligations as the other hetero.
It will be impossible to act on the already sorted in my opinion, because they will do anything to assert themselves in the due legal and civil offices they will be protected because of all those organizations that protect gender. Imagine how many of them will demand compensation for the discrimination suffered. This is in order to remedy what will occur is called chastity is for them and for both hetero. They must be faithful to abandon those who make scandal, even those hetero, no longer attending that parish.
I apologize if I even dare to comment, you have to remove the scandalous and pray for those already ordered, hoping that they become saints. By the way there are?
Santa evening and that the Lord enlighten us
Dear James,.
She makes an interesting and very relevant reflection in his commentary, I share the content. Mi creda però, this is not to copy / paste around the network of short articles and discursive, but these come under the most delicate dogmatic sacramental, then the law that regulates the Discipline of the Sacraments.
Io capisco, what you mean, but unfortunately I fear that in this speech in itself very delicate and complex, she is not able to focus the issue I raise, that after all is simple, and it is this:
when certain priests with overt homosexual tendencies and radically structured, believe homosexuality is legitimate is its practice, I fear that lack some or all of the minimum requirements for the validity of ordination.
What I wonder in my article is whether the parties can hold valid ordinations in which lacks upstream the following requirements:
1. being a man;
2. be a believer;
3. have a correct vision and perception of the Catholic priesthood and have been trained to it;
4. accept the Magisterium of the Church and its teaching on sexual morality;
5. have the conscious perception of good and evil, the lawful and offense;
6. not judge well what the Church judges rather bad, not judge how naturale ordine what the Church considers it instead as serious disorder;
7. do not support and do not believe that the Church is wrong to define homosexuality as serious disorder, instead judging homosexuality as a natural variant of human sexuality, the practice of which would in the opinion of these subjects a legitimate manifestation of natural human affectivity.
I tend to believe that the order of this sort of homosexual persons, come to the priesthood with similar ideas and all that they entail, is not valid, and wait for someone to tell me and show me that I'm wrong to think this.
Gentile Giacomo.
One thing on which I agree is the fact that you can not enter into such delicate talks with “copia-incolla” of texts from internet, as indeed the father explained Ariel, the question is of extreme delicacy, oso dire io … exceptional delicacy. And I can tell you, as a priest, who are very impressed to see me before a theological-legal text (in my opinion unexceptionable) a priest who had the courage to publicly treat such an issue.
Let me give you some advice absolutely required: Carefully read the article in question, where it is clarified, for instance, that the ordination of a sinful priest, and all his sacramental acts, not in valid discussion. It is explained, also, any impediment, in a sinner (conscious of sin, of good and evil) It can be validly ordained priest and be validly priest. The question raised by p. Ariel is precise and very delicate alas, I try to synthesize: ordinations of persons are valid that are devoid of a moral conscience that leads us to consider evil good, up to believe, so, failing the Church and its moral teaching? You can “want” the Catholic priesthood but did not believe the fundamentals, of the Catholic priesthood?
Years ago, I witnessed the declaration of nullity of a marriage, based on the fact that, the spouses, they did not believe the sacrament of marriage, and also to the other sacraments, and they were married in church, Only under pressure from their families.
“Do not be”, as claimed by the p. Ariel “the perception of what really is the priesthood”, It is not the same thing?
Themselves. Giacomo, you are right, regarding the possibility that fears, what a to be taken into serious consideration … and, it is true, we would be overwhelmed by complaints of discrimination, to homophobia, and these cases are won by all these people, with the joy of external genderisti, and our many internal genderisti.
The priests who instead have suffered over many years of their lives, injustice and oppression, simply because they were trying to be good priests, suffering all the compatible diocese now devastated and badly governed, they will never be compensated, nor protected. Or as he wrote P. Ariel in an article that I do not remember now what exactly is … “the Church asked forgiveness to all, to the Jews, to Muslims, to Protestants … Unless his priests devotees”.
Don Ariel, in addition to the previous comment couriered, I also wanted to alert you found this article on the site Aleteia http://it.aleteia.org/2016/07/11/omosessualita-essere-motivo-annullamento-ordinazione-sacerdotale/.
We hope that your are not voices crying in the wilderness, and as soon as the Holy Church addresses the problem with the Blessed Holy Spirit's help.
Thanks for the attention.
Christ Is Always Now Kingdoms
Dear James,.
In the article she indicates to us, however it falls into the dangerous misunderstanding … “provided that the homosexual priest not practice homosexuality”.
Exactly what I, in modo particolare, context.
I understand that my article 28 not easy to read pages, but the question I'm trying to raise is precisely focused on the fact: “If upstream missing man's requirement, del maschio, the believer and the person with a correct perception of the priesthood, one can speak of valid ordination, missing some, if not at all times, the basic requirements?”.
From Italian seminars and more, the wound is clearly present in the Vatican.
argument, in order to prevent the consummation of crimes (according to the different profiles, you may configure: threat, domestic violence, blackmail,corruption, extortion, etc..) and to safeguard the rule of law and freedom, should also have jurisdiction, the State Secretariat.
It is urgent then send personal copy to Bishop. Dirt, number two of the secretariat, In connection with this interview:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/20/swiss-guard-veteran-gay-network-vatican-pope-elmar-mader-homosexual
He replied that the allegations must be proved:
“Once again it speaks of the existence of a 'gay lobby’ in the Vatican, but as sometimes it happened you do not make no names or surnames. Too easy to do so. My office is open. If Elmar Mäder wants to come to tell who exactly it refers are here”.
http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2014/01/21/news/lobby_gay_il_papa_vuole_chiarezza_ma_basta_denunce_anonime_chi_sa_parli-76513474/?ref=search
We pray and trust in the help of B.V. Maria, Mother of the Church.
Dear Ettore.
S. AND. Mons. Angel Vidmar who is in 2013, by phone by calling the then my Bishop, lamented the fact that I, publicly, I had raised the thorny issue of lobby gay In an interview made to me by an Italian television network, and having done this, to say the number two of the Secretariat of State, I had failed to … “opportunity”, then invited “diplomatically” my bishop to silence me for telling the truth. At the same time, however,, this lovable “little guy“, not at all or it took care of Andrea Gallo that during the Masses sang communist anthems waving the red flag [see WHO], nor a veritable army of priests who combined publicly every bad kind. But he had time to make phone calls about me, guilty of having told the truth; and I said that only after you have indicated, reported and especially tried Ecclesiastical Authority.
The Secretary of State lies my report from the late 2011, in which I pointed out and spoke:
1. by frequenting Sodom and Gomorrah Arch-Abbot of Monte Cassino;
2. the case of a Roman basilica which was bankrolled by the rector of a ride marchettari;
3. the case of the Carmelites of St. Teresa's church in Rome.
Previously, the Vicariate of Rome, in February 2010, I pointed out with equal regard the coming and going of priests from the Testaccio gay clubs. Had they intervened, it would be avoided that in July 2010, the weekly Panorama, There literally veneer of mud, everything searched and then unfortunately deserved.
And I, I should send another notice to a probative “pigmeo sardo” which then calls my bishop to say that … This priest is not … “appropriate”?
No, dear Ettore, I in Trieste did not send anything, what I had to send, I sent the Doctrine of the Faith, of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, the Congregation for the Clergy and bishops.
Dearest brother Ariel
You have almost my years of priesthood. I have 78 year old, sono stato ordinato a 25 year old, so they're 53 years of priesthood.
When you struggle aside to … closed doors, the back whispering tra noi preti, that certain things we know, but when you break out public scandals, for miraculous enchantment though none of us knew anything … spesso si dice: ” Oh well, but these people with strange tendencies were always there!”.
For real? I still do not suffer from memory loss and atherosclerosis, and as far as I can tell just the opposite: I do not remember that there were. And I say this from experience, why I entered the seminary in 14 year old, emerged priest 25, and more, during my 11 formative years, I had to deal with subjects that do exist, today, in our seminaries, that have recently “sfarfallando” our seminars.
So let's face it, what hurts so much, and that you and the distinguished Dominican theologian Giovanni Cavalcoli say without fear on this Island of Patmos … and the truth is that, As the song of the '60s that you've reported at the bottom of your article … “the truth hurts” [ed. cf. WHO]
Between the late 60s and early 70s something happened that upset our clergy. And these are the results visible after 40 years or so. So that, your holy words, Sante, sad and true, when you write that “Some seminarians between the seventies and the eighties capeggiavano the seminars pious confraternity, Today they are bishops”.
You touched on the crux, expensive ariel. What do you pay for it, I do not know, but the crucial point you have touched, indicating how, and through those, it was “polluted” the “production chain”.
The Lord bless.
your
Don Antonio from Naples
What a story!… E’ because of this, Gentlemen, that – has climbed – I do not trust the pastoral me “merciful” the Holy Father Francesco:
https://lafilosofiadellatav.wordpress.com/2016/04/03/amoris-laetitia-e-la-ruvida-realta/
Vera mercy would be to raise a Christian people of manly men – non solo preti – e, in parallel, to remove oxygen to gay ecclesial lobby. Ma, as the Holy See's action in this sense does not come…
These two articles your, Fathers of Patmos Island, are a mirror on which, or you accept to see what real reflects, or it reacts lanciandoci a rock above to not see what real reflects. In this second case, however,, the mirror splinters, reflect the reality multiplied …
Thank you, thank you for what you have written.
estimated Father, I am a senior urologist specializing in prostate surgery, and I have done my business in a cancer institute. For several years I operate more, and quiet of retirement I follow some young surgeons in this field, that, engagingly, I han renamed “Grandpa Prostate”.
Alle soglie degli 80 year old, keep in my professional secrecy a case dating back to many years ago.
I found myself before the case of a priest, young, suffering from advanced prostate cancer. The case hit me and then my primary, because we had never diagnosed with cancer of the kind in a young person. We were astonished by the fact that the patient, regardless of all the signs and disorders, He was never subject to controls. He was more terrified by the fear of being seen, that from being afflicted with an incurable cancer and even inoperable.
This patient had a severe malformation of the urogenital apparatus for which it is impossible to have sex.
In the way of porgersi, the timbre of the voice. in his physical appearance, He was a man of undoubted manly demeanor, and its features is understood that before being debilitated by the disease was also good looking man.
Reading his article duct, from my secrecy it remains inviolable as that of you confessors, has re-emerged this figure of man who, For all life, He lived with a secret, and perhaps with a pain. So I reflected on how she insists in his lines that virility (or lack of virility) It is encapsulated inside the brain. And I can tell you that this young priest was mentally undoubtedly man.
The legend, said that once, i papi, They were made to sit, before their proclaimed election, on a chair with a hole, and he proceeded to a control …
Dear Professor.
Forgive me if this e-mail I removed the “introductory”, certainly interesting, leaving only the part that tells the heart of the matter.
She teaches me that manhood meant as erectile capacity and thus as the ability to have sex, the male subject often ends several years before the end of his life.
Then, the fact that going to the bar “geriatrician Allegro“, They discover sat and chatted to groups of tables ultra eighties telling how, undeterred, they continue to sciupar females, it does not mean that those who listen are always available to take as reality the stories that certain old stoned They have drawn from science fiction novels.
It's still, she and her colleagues, not only do you have taught me, but often explained how in your industry be alarmed for various sexual dysfunctions which were not affected much of our fathers and perhaps even our grandparents: premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction in younger age groups of age worryingly, in addition to the decrease in the length and circumference of the penis, etc …
manhood, understood as the ability to perform the sexual act, It is not eternal, They teach you the specialists and teaches common sense, the whole pace of irreducible cockerels that tell mirabilie the bar of “geriatrician Allegro“.
Of course, Today there are surgical and pharmacological systems supports that until a few years ago were unthinkable. And what with this serious risk: among not very we will end up with ninety able to have an erection, yet unable to find the bathroom in the hallway of the house, or remember what good, the erect member, as suffering from end-stage dementia.
No man, priest included, accepts with joy of being deprived of his manhood; although this loss is part of the cycle of life, as part of the life cycle aging, its frailties, often the disease, and eventually death. Always except for those ninety which on one hand have the erect member through urological surgery, but on the other they can not find the bathroom door because ravaged by dementia.
The place where the man's manhood is never less, thus the brain; this determines the character and virility, It affects the personality and accompanies us throughout life.
She took as an example a particular case and rare, before which, a spiritual director and especially a bishop having sacramental authority to order priests, in total secrecy and safeguarding the dignity and honor of the person, they should make a prudent and careful discernment, ascertaining that the person in question had not chosen the priesthood for its particular physical state, so for “makeshift”, but authentic and determined vocation.
And we do not know if, nel caso in questione, ciò sia stato fatto, if anything, even with care and prudence.
Faced with a similar case I could give a purely academic response, but who before cases are so particular and so delicate may decide, it is in fact only the bishop, at its own responsibility.
Ordinarily, the candidate to the priesthood, a man must be in place on the physical plane-sexual and psycho-sexual. And in the seminaries of the past, Also this was very careful, it discreetly, the seminar's medical, one one, seminarians, early teens controlled them all.
Finally, I take this opportunity to debunk a myth born in anti-Roman environment and anti-Catholic Protestant and circulated by authors Calvinists: the chair with the hole to check that the Pontiff was elected a man … straight, so he was not elected by a masked woman man, always as the legend of “papessa Giovanna” also put in circulation by Protestants in Northern Europe environments.
My dear Professor, chi May, before men like Urban II, Bonifacio VIII o Alessandro VI, She would never have dreamed of saying … well, diamogli una tastatina, to see if he has the balls in place?
Only the poor Calvinists, They can achieve similar mental perversions.
… the bar of “geriatrician Allegro” It is two days but I'm reselling around Naples, because next to my parish, a phenomenon like this bar is for real.
Leaving aside the jokes … I really liked the comment of the professor and the father urologist response Ariel. Ma, above everything, I liked the article, even because, recovering the answer given by the father Ariel ladies (letter signed) of Calabrian origin he returned to Calabria, which raises certain questions to love, io credo di poter dire … Calabria knew that we here, in our area bells, Napoli included, above everything including Naples …
father ariel, I worked in Milan for 31 years retiring 6 years ago as a banking executive, My wife is retired 4 years ago as a teacher after being the last 10 years principal of a high school institution.
Two years ago we moved to Calabria.
They Calabrian, and Calabria would never come back, sincerely. But my wife, He was instead born in Milan by the Milanese family, He worked so hard to we leave Milan and we moved in Calabria.
The Nordics are so, fall in love with the South, and they do not want to listen to reason. Undoubtedly, the place where we live, it's very beautiful. Says my wife: “You see the sky every day and you see the sea, not around the palaces”.
In Milan our only son (After him we could not have any more), It grew oratory, She went to Catholic school, Then he graduated at the Catholic University of Milan … We are a Catholic family and a Catholic couple, maybe today, more than yesterday, to … with age, It begins to say … “one day I'll have to contend with the Almighty!”. Joke!
In Milan, in the parish, in oratorio, the Catholic school, We had contact with many priests, one of these then also became bishop. We have known for good (few) di mediocri (a lot of) di meno bravi (several) …
Too, in the area where we live, diocese of [ed. snip], there is a sample of the clergy who has everything, out of men. And believe me, these “preti allegri” are so many, but really a lot.
Come le ho detto: Milan I met around, good priests, mediocre, meno bravi …
Because, instead, here where I am today, they are all so … fluttering?
You can give me an answer? Why me, sincerely, I just can not explain it.
That is why I sign her devotedly
Calabrese Puzzled
P.S. Also a treat to the great Dominican signing, p. Giovanni Cavalcoli.
Dear Reader.
I thank you also for the private letter that you sent me and forgive me if this his comment we put a “ed. snip“, I am sure will understand why.
Let me add a little’ Of salt on his wounds, because they are different things that are beyond, but after I indicated them to him, She will assess what maybe I am right, if anything, he is saying to himself … “True, these details I had just escaped”.
Details are these, I expose them to him in the form of a question:
1. Come May, in certain areas of our South, God gives the grace of vocation so far “classist”, since the absolute majority of candidates for the priesthood, come all of them from families of farmers and workers, with all the reverence for some and for others and their respective families?
2. Come May, in certain areas of our South where they have never missed handsome guys, dotati peraltro – when they truly are beautiful – a typical Mediterranean beauty, If we get into some seminars, it seems to get inside Shop of Horrors?
3. Why it happens that some kids beautiful twenty- and stalwart of our South, with more or less hidden homosexual tendencies, make one-way ticket to Rome, Bologna, Milan … dove in 48 hours are now a rich professional fifties that if you take them and if it keeps them as hereditary princes, while those with identical trends, but not beautiful, but low, grassi, ugly, unsightly appearance, putacaso want to become priests?
I do not care to anger with certain questions even the whole Episcopal Conference Calabrese, because if I were to raise some complaints, I would do with a pithy question of three words: Prove the opposite.
And to think that in certain areas of our South there are ancient and glorious local churches that date back to the beginning of the first expansion of Christianity outside of Judea!
Dear father Ariel, stay certainly keep silent, just to avoid you to tell “Prove the opposite”.
But if you were in need to demonstrate very easy Conversely, Call me! In private, I have provided you with all my extreme purpose.
I was responsible for the pastoral vocation, in a diocese of Calabria, and when he finally blurted out with the bishop, it was not possible, see certain people admitted to the seminary and carried out, He withdrew me overnight commissioned.
Doing, I not offended me, indeed made me a huge favor, because as I said,: “Excellence, my heartfelt gratitude, because at least stop being complicit!”.
… “prove otherwise” ?
Forget it … forget it!
What do you want to contrast that show you, to put where we are!
Every day I bless the Lord for having already made 80 year old, and being closer to the other world to this world!
Greetings from Calabria.
Don Salvo
When our bishop told him that the young pastor, priest for a year, who sent us, it was gay, sounding scandalized, we answered … “it's just a gentle person, the fact that it is a very good mood and sensitive”.
So we were the Malpensante, incapable of grasping delicacy, goodness and sensitivity.
When around the parish, He began to be a strange turn of youth, the bishop said, “He is dedicated to helping disadvantaged young people in difficulty. For parishioners never go at all well, if one is not available is not good, if one is available it is not good …”.
So we were hard hearts, without charity to the needy.
When the cheerful young priest was caught by police with a minor 16 year old, Bishop said … “what do you expect from the Church and priests? Perhaps the holiness that have you not … the virtues that have you not? Where do you think the priests fall, from heaven? No, priests are sons of this world and of this your company”.
So it was the fault of society.
A quel point, I, before all, sbottai … “well Excellence, well! Finally we realized that the fennel priests are not the fault of you bishops who ordered them, but the whole society's fault that infinocchia them and us lay people who are devoid of holiness and virtue”.
Dear Paul.
Thank you for the dual posts: detailed what he sent me in private and the public entered as readable comment to all our readers.
The contents of his commentary, once proven true, It should be sufficient, indeed the surplus for the Ecclesiastical Authority, to proceed without delay to remove a bishop like the bishop's throne.
The things, instead, They are unfortunately quite differently …
By keeping confidential the identity of the bishop and the reference to the diocese he is currently governed, I can simply explain to our readers the following: Bishop explained to her – which is exactly as she depicted him – similar damage already had them in a small diocese, from which it was so removed, but if it was removed! It was removed to be transferred to a medium to large metropolitan archbishopric, just one in which there was the fact she narrated in his commentary.
As I wrote at the beginning of my article, Also in this response back to reiterate that we have not and can not exercise powers which are not covered, therefore, all that we can do at the moment, It is to tell the truth and expose the evil with justice and charity, and if necessary paying high a price for the work of those who think, in the modern world of real-time news, to always be able to play those “conceal the dirt under the carpet” or who think they can “wash your dirty linen at home“.
And who, the face of these things, It does not act decisively, avoiding that the People of God remain disgusted by some of our deeds, Tomorrow is likely to pay an eternal price: the hell.
Gentile e Rev. father ariel.
I speak as a woman, doctor and specialist in clinical psychology devoted to cognitive behavioral therapy.
Since I am a member of a Catholic medical association, dedicated volunteerism and free specialized services for borrowers have-nots, during a meeting of our group of physicians with the bishop of the diocese, I took him aside and raised the serious and objective question of its clergy, format for at least (if not beyond) the 50% by male subjects with obvious homosexual tendencies.
All with this result: the bishop gave orders to the leaders of Caritas not to drive more with me people with ailments against which they could not have recourse to paid specialists.
And then I realized who was the first homosexual snappier diocese.
Mi domandavo: It is to me, Catholic lay volunteer, they did this to have privately said to the bishop the obvious truth, to you who are priests, and that you have published what you wrote in your articles, What can you?
Dear Dr..
I reply with a smile and at the same time with a tear, then with a reassurance: do not worry for us, because everything that could harm us these people, They have already done.
And we, Padre Giovanni e io, with the grace of God and by the grace of God we were splendidly standing, more faithful to the Church and more combative first.
And of this, i nostri gai enemies, they can not find peace.
But the problem is not ours, is all their.
Dearest father Ariel.
The issue you raise is so vast and intricate that I limit myself to the seminars, about which I confirm: I've seen in the time of their scandalous, regarding the persons who may in them, but also about the trainers, often frustrated subjects, with the bullet missed the psychologists … and never mind the ones with the intellectuals ball.
You're right, and consequently come (rightly!) to question the valid orders of items that are not men, non sono cattolici, They do not have the correct idea of the priesthood.
All true. But how do we fix it, especially to reverse the damage of those various bishops, that, as in our area, where the shortage of priests is felt more and more, take whoever happens, if anything, to the detriment of the few good elements, that in some seminaries and certain companies, They never WOULD BE?
Dear Brother.
Always I am of this opinion: quando dal “center” It can unfortunately no longer controls the institutions that are in “periphery”, then you must take those institutions and bring them all to “center”, or otherwise create mechanisms which are monitorable by “center”. What in fact happens to occur and followed, including the presence of openly homosexual individuals within our seminars, It is part of a now escaped the control mechanism; a control that, sometimes, one gets the impression that does not want to be picked up.
I speak only of Italy mo’ d’esempio: I think the solution would be to create three large workshops: one in northern Italy (for example Milano), one in the Center (in Rome), one in the south of Italy. In the latter case I would be inclined as locations for Messina, where the huge Jesuit college, which, while he is always able to do damage on the philosophical and theological level, however, they are not longer able to keep open many of their huge structures, several of which have already been sold or leased to other institutions.
These three seminars should be controlled directly by the Holy See, The selected trainers and directly appointed by it, just as the philosophy and theology teachers.
A Class level, We should aim first of all to the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the period of pre-training seminar, then the teaching of Catholic doctrine and the Magisterium of the Church, because that is what serves as a training tool and then as a pastoral tool to a priest. All with specific programs and established, without the possibility of introducing authors and theories that for the past half-century are those filosofismi, sociologisms and teologismi, on which are “deformati” future priests, many of whom, coming out of these seminars, Not even able to list first to seventh – What sadly proven and ascertained – the Grace Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Also Provvederei to elevate 29 the minimum age for ordination of deacons and transient 30 the minimum age for ordination of priests, establishing that the training for a candidate to Holy Orders entering a seminary-age below 30 year old, is not less than 8 year old.
Provvederei also create, in Rome, a large workshop structured differently that is appropriate and specific to adult vocations, which require different and special care, but above all different and very experienced trainers. And in this seminar I would send all those who begin the training for the priesthood in the aged 35 year old.
I consider it absurd – as they did several bishops – put men 40/50 years in the seminary with young people in the age group below 30 year old.
But you can be sure that no, Unfortunately, It will never go for this logical mind and most importantly saving plan.