Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio on the Tridentine Mass should be abolished, revealed to the facts: unhappy, inappropriate and harmful

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THE ABOVE IS ABOLISHED MOTU PROPRIO OF BENEDICT XVI ON THE TRIDENTINE MASS, REVEALED TO THE EVIDENCE OF THE FACTS: UNHAPPY, INAPPORTANT AND HARMFUL

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A thirty year old priest who starts doing the Tridentine traditionalist, from where he brings out the formation and culture indispensable to celebrate with the Missal of St. Pius V? Simply said,: a priest who wished to celebrate worthily with the Missal of St. Pius V should study the structure of the rite for years and years, its theological sense and its evolution over the centuries; because that rite takes place in an ecclesial and pastoral dimension that no longer exists today. Otherwise it will fall into a grotesque worse than that of some priests who make buffoonery celebrating with the Missal of St. Paul VI.

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Author
Ariel S. Levi Gualdo

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In this Lectio I explain why I hope that the use of the Missal of St. Pius V granted in 2007 col Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum on the Roman Liturgy by the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI.

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Muovendomi on rigorous historical-theological criteria, I explain first of all what the limits of the liturgical reform of the Second Vatican Council were. A reform that the Church needed, but on the results of which, today, there is a lot to discuss.

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Then impartial and without prejudice, I analyze and explain how it is not possible to hypothesize a return to a past that some people should not pass through. At the same time, but, I explain how urgent it is to get corrective, proceeding to one reform of the reform of a sacred liturgy that for decades has become the theater of the subjective and extravagant personalisms of the celebrants, until it becomes unstable and bent to a particular whim, instead of being a prayerful expression of the universal dimension of the Church through the Sacrifice of Christ the Lord which is renewed in the Holy Mass.

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From the island of Patmos, 7 May 2020

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117 thoughts on "Benedict XVI's Motu Proprio on the Tridentine Mass should be abolished, revealed to the facts: unhappy, inappropriate and harmful

  1. The Fathers de The island of Patmos they have always liked and published the readers' comments, that we will continue to publish. Unfortunately,, especially when dealing with philosophical topics, historical, theological and pastoral, happen to be overwhelmed by messages written by trolls that, even though they lack the basic foundations of Catholic doctrine, claim to lecture on “true theology”. Our good pastoral heart has always led us to respond especially to this kind of readers, hoping to induce them to repent and understand that they were expressing wrong concepts. In response,, most of them reacted by sending insulting and aggressive messages. since, as Priests, of our time we will have to account to God, we decided to discard all irrelevant comments, remembering that the comments are for:

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    1. A really interesting video. I am an admirer of the ancient liturgy, to whom I have dedicated part of my studies and attending it according to the Ambrosian rite. Well, I must admit that many of those who approach the ancient rite do it out of simple exoticism, desire for different (I go to the ancient Mass because it is chic), for the taste of the past (not as a love of Tradition) even as a simple historical element of breakdown (see Messe Vetus Ordo celebrated at Camp X to which almost nobody responds or participates devoutly). I believe it is right to participate in the ancient liturgy in a non-ideological way, treating it as living faith of the dead, like a river in flood flowing from ancient springs and not as an adoration of the ashes of a past (idealized, as Father Ariel rightly says) that's over

    2. I thank Father Ariel of your lectio which finally clarifies. Catholics suffer attacks from crazed splinters of a certain orientation that wants to be called traditionalist and that rejects both the liturgical reform and the Vatican II Ecumenical Council, attacks and undue pressure not to attend Holy Mass (Novus Ordo Mass) in our parishes, as it would be “Protestant”, and so they spread confusion when they do not spread heresies. Thanks

    3. Congratulations dear Rabbi Levi. He understood the all Jewish humorous provocation. And I appreciate it. According to her then a seminarian who for birth reasons was not born near the conciliar period would not understand the religious function of Paolo Mesto? And then in the FFSPX seminars it would not be possible to transmit the Tradition?
      That's why they invite her on TV … Coherently remove the cassock and bandage from your rambling because the Theology that represents you does not understand it ….

      1. As Father Ariel said, and as the pontifical Magisterium also affirms, Tradition is alive. Tradition is not transmitted in the seminaries of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X., but an "Incomplete idea, because it does not take sufficient account of the living nature of Tradition, that – as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught – originates from the Apostles, progresses in the Church under the assistance of the Holy Spirit: indeed understanding, as much of the things as of the words transmitted, it grows with both the reflection and the study of believers, who meditate on them in their hearts, both with the profound intelligence that they experience spiritual things, and with the preaching of those who with the episcopal succession have received a certain charism of truth. But above all, a notion of Tradition is opposed to the universal Magisterium of the Church, owned by the Bishop of Rome and the Body of Bishops[…]“ [Motu proprio "Ecclesia Dei", given the 2 July 1988 by St. John Paul II]. I'm certainly not a theologian like Father Ariel, but here the Church through the Pope spoke clearly, in addition to, I might add, the problems and challenges that the Church lives in the present cannot be solved by taking refuge in a dreamlike and idealized past, which, as recalled in the lectio by Father Ariel he was not without problems and abuses. The myth of the five ages of the world that Hesiod described in "The works and the days" cannot be applied to the Church, whereby, from the golden age, we ended up in an iron age made of pain and…

    4. It is unknown or disguised that the Missal of St. Pius V is used as a pick: it is necessary to mention the names of historians and theologians, university teachers, writers, journalists, bloggers, according to which we are faced with a false church that must be undone, overthrow and destroy? The Tridentine Mass, worse than a fetish, comes from them agitated as, on another level, are the revelationists of private messaging which means heavenly: since the enemy could not break down the Church of Christ (we have your promise), he persuaded that it was replaced at night and so they lash out against the pope, against bishops, against priests and faithful. Humility can be simulated, obedience costs - it is evident- fatigue

  2. Dear don Ariel,

    from what I have deepened, Vatican Council II has been influenced by Rahner: while not endorsing it, the thought has left doors open which over time have been crossed by followers of that thought. An increasingly widespread idolatry of human rights has also conditioned Catholic doctrine, also leading the leaders of the Church to relativize even the words of Jesus, arriving at a pseudo-right to the mercy of God that saves everyone except Lucifer (still for now).

    These deviations changed the formula of consecration to “paid for all” how they modified the Our Father by eliminating the “trial / temptation” to eliminate the related judgment and therefore the possible sentence. All this to make them understand that those who prefer an ancient rite are aware of the drift in progress and, for this, they seek refuge in an earlier rite adrift, also renouncing the merits that a ritual in Italian undoubtedly has.

    For the brotherly affection I have for him, I invite you to associate your spiritual condition today with Ariel told in Isaiah 29.

    fraternal safety

  3. Egr Father Ariel,

    I listened with interest to his video because I belong to those who love the The old rite of the Mass.

    Without hypocrisy, I confess that I disagree with your thoughts. On the contrary, I see the world “traditionalist” like the least problematic ones I've ever encountered. Why Is That, if you are right when you report certain cracks on the “Mass of All Time” or on the “Protestant Mass of Paul VI”, in these environments he will not find all the horrendous heresies that devastate the Church up to the parish behind the house.

    It is clear that there are problems, but they are so insurmountable as to hope for the repeal of Motu Proprio? on the contrary I think that a greater historical and theological formation would help this environment to overcome certain defects and to live the present with greater harmony without having to be forced to put up with some “parish group” or worse the theologies that you have denounced for years.

    About abuse, if in the early decades of the 900 liturgical abuse was widespread (as you explained in the past) will agree by saying that today they are gone and that the Mass of St. Pius V is finally celebrated very well!

  4. It seems necessary to remember that the Motu Proprio it came out concurrently with the removal of the excommunication from the Lefevrians.

    The then Pontiff thus wanted to emphasize the fact that the excommunication was not to be related to the rite (at the time demonized); with the newfound communion in the Church, to whoever wished it, the opportunity was offered to rediscover the beauty of the previous missal. In fact, as the Pontiff had to specify, in no way can the prayer that the Church has used over half a millennium be considered illegal, all the more so if it has never been repealed.

    In the intentions of Benedict XVI there was certainly no return to the past, but the recovery of a past too quickly buried to better guide future choices. Perhaps a way of initiating and guiding the desired reform of the reform that has never been launched. The post-conciliar choices have in fact proved to be wrong precisely because of the nefarious prevalence of hermeneutics of the discontinuity between the pre and post-conciliar Church.

    Of the valuable report of Fr.. Ariel, however, I do not understand why the righteous argument of the slightly exalted devotees was used to completely discredit the possibility of celebrating in the old rite. With the same reasoning, the missal of Paul VI should be repealed due to the repeated liturgical abuse by far more numerous fanatics from the other side. If anything, in view of the fact that the old rite requires deep preparation by celebrants and faithful, appropriate liturgical courses preparatory to adequate participation should be recommended.

  5. Dear Father Ariel,

    I often didn't agree with his views, but I must say that this time he is right to sell. I fully agree with what you wrote,the Popes it was a bad idea, I say this despite having an unlimited estimate for Pope Benedict XVI.

    The Missal of Paul VI was not promulgated to coexist with that of Pius V, even if the latter has never been abolished. It has not been abolished, but it has fallen into disuse and stubbornly kept alive by traditionalist groups, but, for me it is no longer presentable in today's society. The Popes, born to solve the problems of communion and to avoid fragmentation and bring the Lefebrvians back to the Church, has failed on both sides, creating more division than there was already.

    The Missal of Pius V was reformed by the Church and with the Church and therefore must be put aside,the Church walks, Go on, while remaining steadfast in doctrine, in tradition and faith.

    Leaving everything as it is today, one does more wrong to the Missal of Pius V than anything else and reduces it to an ideological flag.

    Bravo I agree with you, abolish the Supreme and put the Missal of Pius V in the attic.

    1. You are saying that one who travels with three deflated wheels and a rim on the ground should throw away the only spare wheel because it is a bit’ impolverata.
      I am not a traditionalist and I never attended a Vetus Ordo mass (I wouldn't even know where to go), but,

      to) I do not find it fair to call a traditionalist who wanted to do it (the treasures of the Church must not be demonized;
      b) we must not prevent what is lawful only because someone's behavior gives us a hives);
      (c)) as long as there is no reform of the liturgical reform it is extremely wise to keep the old missal alive and not to spread the false impression that it hurts souls.

      What hurts is the loss of faith which is a direct consequence of the pollution of the liturgy.

      1. Dear Stephen

        if and I understand his metaphor, the three deflated wheels would represent the Missal of Paul VI;the wheel swells but dusty the Missal of Pius V?

        And’ sure that this is really the case and that the Missal of Pius V was truly so perfect? The Missal of Paul VI is truly this disaster and mass of heresies and errors? I think the truth is in the middle and I wonder: why one should always be so extremist and peremptory?

        First of all I ask you: The reform of the Tridentine Council was implemented immediately or took some time? In my humble opinion, it was accepted gradually and so why perfection is claimed, only fifty years after the reform of Vatican II? We are then sure that in the past, the liturgy was so perfect and impeccable,as you would like to believe? Reading the booklet of S.Alfonso Maria De’ Liguori,entitled Mass and the Office scrambled the opposite would be said. S.Alfonso, in that booklet, complains of abuse, neglect, Messe celebrate male etc.

        In my humble opinion, if the Church deemed it appropriate to reform the Rite of Pius V it was because she no longer considered it suitable, society was changing and had to stop behaving like a city under siege. Let's not forget that the Council fathers knew the Missal of Pius V well, but also its shortcomings. I share the explanation given by Don Ariel on celebrating Before God and the eastern, it could also be celebrated in the east by celebrating the people. The Missal of Pius V has been used as an ideological flag by those who think that the Church is a…

        [N.d.R. the message came with the final sentence truncated, maybe a word is missing, we just specify that nobody cut it]

        1. look, ideological flags are not of one color. I grew up feeling nonsense like the one that with the liturgical reform the priest finally stopped turning his back on the faithful, or, that mass is a canteen and at the table one looks at each other. I'd like to live in a world (in a church) in which people were not forced to believe and repeat these nonsense. As for the non-vocation priests who profane the rite, even the ancient one, well, Jesus would say “you will always have them among you”.

          1. let us not forget that many of the current abuses are children and successors of the abuses that happened before the Council: for example, the canon said all very fast and slurred has turned into use, almost at every Mass, of the EP II (also called as fast as possible) instead of the other Eucharistic prayers
            both abuses stem from a lack of understanding of the Eucharistic mystery and poor formation (and often also wrong)
            in addition to, if before Vatican II there was an attempt to train the faithful on the liturgy, after this (e andando controversy, Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium,) it was totally abandoned, because we were so convinced that, since it is in the vernacular, the faithful certainly understood everything! which turned out to be totally false.
            and in my opinion it is even more hallucinating to see the faithful who participate in a liturgy in Italian without understanding it (as well as passively) of faithful who do the same thing to one in Latin.

            however I was one of those ignorant faithful who participated in the liturgies in Extraordinary Form without understanding and a little’ in protest, but compared to the Ordinary Form this has pushed me more to try to understand the meaning of what was celebrated and to read a lot (even by certainly not traditionalist authors) and therefore to participate better in the F.O. (I usually participate in)
            however if I had not had the opportunity to access the F.S. (where I met many people who helped me in my prayer life) this would never have happened

  6. Dear Readers,

    I too, like Father Ariel, am a fifty-year-old priest and I can say that unfortunately people do not always understand the sufferings to which we priests are subjected.

    Those of our age group, that Motu Proprio so they welcomed him: a band of priests with deep disappointment (to the point of declaring war immediately), a band of priests with deep favor, getting busy promoting it e, I have to say, even with the support of many diocesan bishops, some of which, after his promulgation they immediately began to search for priests among their priests, obviously mostly elderly, able to celebrate with that “old rite” celebrated by them before the liturgical reform.

    I think I can say, without wanting to speak even for a confrere, that both, p. Ariel and I., we have always belonged to this second group, not least the fact that we are able to celebrate in a more than good way with the Missal of St. Pius V proves it, knowing Latin, knowing how this missal is articulated, knowing its historical sense, theological and liturgical.

    Unfortunately the enthusiasm eased when, in a short time, we met with ideologized and belligerent groups of faithful who claimed to use this missal, so we priests, exactly for what p. Ariel has excellently illustrated in his lesson truly and balanced masterly: to oppose the liturgical reform and an entire council.

    Lovers of this rite respond by claiming that those we complain about are only borderline cases and that the bulk is made up of people who wish to participate in an S. Mass very gathered in prayer and marked by the most genuine spirituality.

    Since we priests are celebrating, but not these defenders, the question they should ask themselves is simple and is as follows: because many priests shortly thereafter placed this Missal in the liturgical library and refused to take it out ever again, after being deeply burnt and embittered by these people in search of divisions and struggles, corresponding to not very small numbers?

    We placed that Missal in the liturgical library precisely for the reasons explained by Fr.. Ariel, and these are reasons which are by no means limit cases but unfortunately numerous.

    Sorry to hear lay people say to us priests and to us celebrants that things are otherwise. If, however, as they say, things are otherwise, then we, with whom we found ourselves having bad experiences until we gave up these celebrations? Because as rightly said p. Ariel, we live in the world of reality. It is not that instead, who lives in the world “his” or in the world of the unreal, he wants us to understand how things are going?

    1. Expensive Don Claudio, I think you and others have done the right thing to put the old missal on the shelf if your experience has not produced the desired results. Other, but, is to request the abolition of Motu Proprio forcing everyone to do so and denying in principle that such fruits are possible, and thus giving reason to those who claim that that is untouchable and unwatchable stuff from which evil can only arise. I can't accept this, undermines my faith.

  7. Dear Don Ariel.
    Sorry but I disagree, because it tastes like self-referencing
    I am opposed to repealing the motu proprio, it is not the solution for problems. It is already a declaration of war. Beyond that, the mess of prejudices that priests like you have, on the world “Trad.”, they seem absurd to me.

    Mass is about God, not the man, it seems to me Sacrosanto to be addressed “the eastern”.
    Bugnini proposed something totally different from the Roman Catholic Concept, cannot deny it. Mass is a dogma, which must be treated holy.

    It is true, however, that post-Council reforms have germinated mad and irresponsible for “Priests”. who, in fact, I agree with a reform of the reform. The canon of the Council of Trent, anathematizes those who change in the sense of distorting the meaning of the Rites and those who want to totally repeal the Latin Language. Therefore, I think that simply a version with several Italians of the same missal of Saint Pius V could easily be done, at the same time leaving the Mass entirely in Latin, what's wrong?

    I find the behavior of certain clergymen bad and disgusting even in the past to even demonize and persecute those who say Mass in Latin.

    This thing, it is not a point in favor of the Church and her unity, there are many differences between Old and Novus, differences, that affect the Faith. In fact the moral disaster comes from there.
    Why to those who came after 69 they have been denied this Liturgical Beauty? I remember that Christ came to divide the Truth from the lie, this unleashes anger. Let's abolish the gospel? Second…

    1. Dear Annamaria,

      when you don't know, at that point it would be good to ask, listen and learn. But she doesn't seem inclined to listen, but partly to teach and partly to make judgments of a terrible severity. However, she teaches those who know a lot more than she does; but not only because it celebrates the sacred mysteries, but because he knows the sacramental dogmatics and the history of the sacred liturgy with all its articulated and complex evolutions and variations that have taken place over the centuries in the context of the discipline of the sacraments.

      You accuse me of having prejudices? Well, I reply that I addressed this accusation to a person who dedicated the first part of his discussion to explaining the limits of the liturgical reform and the problems that followed in the post-council.

      She then confuses the position the eastern with location coram Deo. Indeed, excluding private chapels or internal speakers, for example to religious houses, if anything, obtained from a room in the building, all the altars of the basilicas, parish churches and rectories, they are faces the eastern.

      Know therefore that it can always be celebrated the eastern faces the people.
      And mind you, I say so: the architecture of the oldest churches says so, starting from the major Roman basilicas. Or perhaps he has never seen how the altars of the Cathedral of San Giovanni in Laterano are positioned, of the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, of the Basilica of San Paolo Fuori le Mura, or the Papal archbasilica of San Pietro with his altar of confession? On all these altars, centuries and centuries before the liturgical reform of the sixties, it was celebrated the eastern faces the people.

      Well, the basilica one is the oldest altar of which we have traces, archaeological evidence and testimonies that date back to the first apostolic era, the catacombs and the first paleochristian basilicas prove it.

      Noting certain ecclesiastics of "bad and disgusting behavior", I even, who in his opinion "demonize Mass in Latin", she provides further proof of commenting in acid tones what she has not really listened to, in fact, I am here and I have hoped for a return to the use of the Latin language. If law, before shooting in burst he had just listened, at the end of the video he would find all my explanations in this regard.

      Always a sad proof that she did not even bother to listen to the video which also comments in such severe tones, she makes an improper and casual use of the term “dogma”. Then I remind you of what I explain in my video with impeccable theological rigor from the beginning: “dogma” they are not all external accidents or external forms, but the substance of the Most Holy Eucharist instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ. Instead, you confuse the external accidental element with the immutable and untouchable substance of the dogma, a very serious thing that denotes a lack of perception of what are the substantial foundations of faith.

      And here I stop and conclude by saying them: she is an ignorant lady in the etymological sense of the term – that is: he who ignores – and as such it cannot give lessons of doctrine and sacred liturgy to me or to my confreres. Is this, I don't tell her to react irritably to what she wrote, least of all – God forbid! – to offend her, but only to correct it, because I have a pastoral obligation to do it, that is, invite her to repent from certain obvious, blatant and serious errors.

      Finally, I repeat: she is part of a large army of people who, to me as to many of my other brothers, anything but prevented, have led us to keep us away from use – at least public – of the Missal of Saint Pius V, to avoid giving support, voice and pretexts of struggle precisely to people who reason wrongly like her and who would claim to use a Missal and a Mass in the so-called Tridentine rite, to effectively reject the liturgical reform and an entire council of the Church. And no priest, that he is an authentic pastor in the care of a faithful soul servant of the Church, it can never lend itself to anything like this.

      1. Father Ariel Caro.

        I answer that I saw the video.
        Despite having talked to various priests about it. In the San Pio V version, the fact that the Priest turns his back on the people “preserve” from distractions on principle, unlike how she celebrates. It is an aid to avoid distractions, one of the advantages. And then, first thing again, helps concentration to Sacrifice.

        I told her I have prejudices, to respond to the fact that in the video she said that in the mass group of always there are people who think everything is pure and spiritual. Or he defined “the celebrants of the funny mystery” priests who celebrate this mass.

        I saw the video and how she positioned herself.
        But it goes without saying that it's me “the acid”, I knew how many times they told me. But I fly over.
        If I'm sour, excuse me, I will try to be more diplomatic.
        For the rest, taking these things away, I largely agree that they have a reform reform.

        Of course, I don't understand why the Latin Mass should disappear, moreover that sung.
        What's wrong? Moreover, she has a nice matching voice.
        Therefore?

        We will have to try to do it all over again and better.
        I don't understand the reason for all these changes. In fact, the Popes who changed at the time, they never changed the position of the celebrant. Case? Moreover, I know the liturgy well before 1500 it was different, but it must be contextualized. The liturgy has improved over the centuries, only from 69 to date they have degraded it. You can't cancel any further 1000 years of history.

        😊

        1. Dear Annamaria,

          I am truly sorry that you misunderstand, for this reason I consider it appropriate to explain myself: just because she misunderstood.
          The video in question is a document that cannot be denied, before which, once again, she attributes to me what I have not said. On the contrary: you blame me for the exact opposite of what I said, taking my sentence, turning it upside down and directing it to who ever I addressed it.

          «[…] the priests who celebrate this mass have defined "the celebrants of the funny mystery".

          Not so, she totally distorts my words, because I said verbatim:

          «[…] some of my brothers have gone from liturgical abuse to filthy buffoonery, documented and circulated in the telematic network to make people laugh about these priests who have come to change the sacred into a theater. And by chance it appears that some of these have never been suspended a divinis by their bishop and sent for a year to a cloistered monastery, with the obligation to study the foundations of the sacred liturgy, before returning to celebrate Holy Mass? Of course not! If anything, that bishop took it out on me when I told him: "You bishops cannot leave certain priests free to scandalize the People of God by transforming the sacred mysteries into the" funny mystery "of Dario Fo" [cf. Funny mystery, satirical play by 1969]. With the difference that "Funny Mystery" is a work of art, beyond certain satirical excesses, while the antics made at the altar by certain priests, they are grotesque and often ridiculous desecrations ».

          I am turning, in a clear and precise, throughout the first part of the video, criticism of those of my confreres who unfortunately follow liturgical abuses with the Missal of St. Paul VI, Sometimes, the real buffoonery. I do not impute celebrates with the The old order is posted to celebrate the funny mystery. Also because, throughout this first part, I speak of the liturgical reform which has proved to be unsuccessful at all and I indicate the liturgical abuses which were then reached in the post-council.

          Now, if she continued to turn my words upside down and to blame me for what I didn't say, with all the best will on my part, mi tip: what we should talk about?

          1. Then I apologize.
            Anyway, I repeat, it is not the solution to request the abolition of the motu proprio.

            Certain errors should be noted.
            And fix what needs to be fixed.
            😊
            Maybe the title of the video is provocative,in my opinion, because misleading.

  8. Tell the truth Father
    she is a professional killer

    After the Gospari, the traditionalists were also killed 😂😂

    a serious question…:
    But Greek was not the language of the Gospels?
    The mass of “always”
    it should not be celebrated in Greek?
    I ask for a friend

    Ps:
    Ariel has a beautiful voice
    😂😂

  9. Expensive Don Claudio,

    I understand her bitterness but I invite her to look better at the bitterness of those she believes “looking for divisions and struggles”; I was too but then I accepted the doctrinal drifts in progress as consequences allowed by God and which only He can remedy.

    The The old order looks like an anchor to grab on so as not to be dragged down by the rushing current of modernism that was thrown out the door but returned from every window. I do not justify the anger of those who perceive this oppression but I understand it because it is human to rebel against the oppressors who, in this case they are unaware of it.

    The kingdom of peace was promised to us in the Old and New Testaments, even before that in Medjugorie and I find it very sad that priests oppose the Queen of Peace, although at least the first apparitions have been recognized as authentic. But what God foresaw will happen anyway and every knee will bend to the name of the Lord.

  10. While respecting everyone,I struggle enormously to understand those who prefer Pius V's Mass. I wonder what they find there?
    I have attended the Mass of Pius V several times, I have tried to understand the reasons for those who praise this rite, but I just couldn't, it will certainly be my limit.

    What do you like about that liturgy, Latin? The position coram Deo? Heavy liturgical robes? The pomp of the liturgy? I don't really understand. I have the presumption to think this, forgive me if I allow myself, but what Jesus wanted to establish?

    The pomp of the liturgy of Pius V as it relates to what Jesus wanted to institute? My impression, participating in the Tridentine Mass, it was that of a ritual that is essentially moved by the concern to underline some elements to answer Luther, his denial of transubstantiation and the established priesthood, the sacrificial value of the Mass, precisely because it was denied by the Protestants. It was right to do this in the sixteenth century, in the midst of a crisis of the Church and Catholicism, but we went on, five hundred years have passed, times have changed, we have experienced Vatican II which has emphasized the ecclesiology of communion more and the Mass must also testify to this communion.

    Protestants are separate brothers with whom we must dialogue and enter into communion,because the essence of Christianity is charity

    1. Truly in Christianity the only essential thing is Jesus.
      That said, what you say is inadmissible, that is, the Tridentine mass was invented to give against Protestants, and that, conversely, now it is right to repeal it to reconcile us with them. Aside from the fact that the Church is already predominantly Protestant in faith and that many Catholics live practical theism like the Protestant brothers, and that therefore the Church incarnates it already in itself, but what communion there can be outside sacramental life? If true communion is possible it is only with the return of the Protestants to the sacraments, not with the abandonment of the same by Catholics.

    2. The argument of the alleged fssto does not seem to me to be acceptable. In itself the mass of Saint Pius V, just as it was celebrated in parishes , it does not require much more than a mass celebrated in today's parish. And with all due respect to the Gregorianists , even steady singing was rarely used. In fact, often the mass read was celebrated “with songs” (that is with devotional songs, not always of excellent quality). . Just to remember that the past was not what some imagine today.
      Rather, it is to complain that in various contexts today there is a tendency to show off a taste “loaded” improper if not inappropriate, which draws rather than brings closer. Fortunately, there is no shortage of priests and groups who seriously pursue a healthy balance.

  11. Father Ariel Caro,

    I sent her a private email to better remind her who I am.
    When from Naples I went to Rome for work, I participated several times in the weekday mass she celebrated in the church in Piazza della Repubblica, I speak to her almost 10 years ago, and, several times, I also came to confess to her.
    After attending the first mass she celebrated (I remember it was a Monday in November 2010), mass that lasted almost 40 minutes, with spaces of silence for moments of reflection, prayer and thanksgiving, I came to talk to her and explained that it was us, in Naples, we were debated on one side between the bongos and the dances of the Neocatechumenals, and on the one hand we had the nostalgics who had transformed the old rite into circles of pseudo-noble pastimes, nostalgic for the Bourbon kingdom, lovers of ancient taste, etc. …
    She pointed out to me a couple of Neapolitan priests of her acquaintance in whose parish churches I have been going for years now, and they are priests who celebrate well, with sacred devotion, as she.
    I am struck by how certain commentators deny the evidence, even insulting her on her facebook page, but I think there is no denying that finger that she stuck straight and precise into the wound: apart from the many good people, many of them, if anything, disappointed by the extravagances of certain priests, the bulk of those attending that mass, they are people who have a strong hatred for the new missal, liturgical reform and the council. I don't understand why those same people who have this attitude, and then, deny having it!
    One of the good priests, excellent celebrant, preacher and confessor, attentive to decorum and liturgical orthodoxy, that I attend in Naples, he said his exact same things, that is, some people cannot be given a missal as a pretext for battling the “sacrilegeously harvested bugniniana” and “council origin of all the evils of the church”.
    This priest is not a progressive, as you are a conservative attentive to doctrine and liturgy. This is why I say that, if opposed to the use of this missal are those like you, because, some people, instead of rattling, they don't ask … but these priests, which are not prevented and opposed by party taken, if they are against it, it may be that in this motu proprio there were things that did not work? It costs a lot of people to ask this question? Or they are too busy to believe that in their small world everything is sacred, pure, perfect and more Catholic than the Catholic? In conclusion, but a little’ of healthy self-criticism no, just none of them can do it?

    1. Dear Alessio,

      I remember her very well and I replied privately.
      Thank you for your message, greet me my confreres whom you attend in their parishes in Naples and whom I haven't seen for some time, even if I periodically hear them.
      Above all, best wishes and blessings for the birth of your third child.

  12. Yes it can’ agree with certain specific criticisms of this or that defect “typical” of those who go to “Latin Mass”, but they greatly embitter the scornful accents with which you describe, generalizing abundantly, these fanatics of the “Latin”. Who have the unforgivable fault of not having studied Latin and sacramental dogmatics for years (like a few billion other ignorant poor Christians), but that they found in the “Latin Mass”, a refuge from the deluge of obscenity, irreverences, platitudes to which they are subjected in the parish “type” of our days, both from a liturgical and pastoral point of view.

    At the exit of my parish “tradi'” will find old, joyful adults and young people, who have no dusty nostalgia, but they certainly hope with real supernatural Hope, that France returns to being “firstborn daughter of the Church” (of, this unbearable rigidism!), who carry on their shoulders or hands numerous children who welcome with courage and joy, and that they know they have just welcomed into their hearts, not a symbol, not a memory, but the Real Presence, Body, Anima, Blood and Divinity of God who welcomed on their knees with all the reverence of which our poor human natures are capable.

    Sorry to know that you will be among those who will rejoice on the day when these people will also be deprived of this safe haven, in the name of a phantom “reform of the reform” that will keep waiting for years, while their children will be abandoned to ambiguous and banal catechesis, sentimental or,…

  13. Father Ariel Caro,

    I tell you right away that I didn't listen to your video, because for personal reasons I don't have time to listen to any video.
    So you can easily censor me as O.T.

    However in the introduction you say at least two questionable things:

    to) that only those who have years and years of theological study can celebrate in extraordinary form – because, celebrating in an ordinary way authorizes you to be ignorant and sloppy?

    b) that since you are a learned and competent theologian, he can rightly censure an unfortunate and harmful unhappy pontifical decree.

    After that, I see comments from readers who, as has been the case for many years, they cannot say anything about the merits of the New Order (sadly evocative name), but they know how to speak badly of people and of the intentions of those who dare to desire the extraordinary rite.

    Why right now, just in a very particular period, she chooses to ride this topic, standing alongside other knights who have been talking crickets for years, and above all sparlanti ? Even those are learned and competent theologians?

    It won't be that having to put the liturgy in the hands of Conte and Lamorgese, CEIP prefers to simplify life for itself and for new owners?

    1. And’ very difficult, not to say absurd, discuss an articulated exposure of 50 minutes that the interlocutor did not listen, as she pressed, also because it could be that, if in addition to title and subtitle, she would listen to the whole dissertation, could also agree on what I have exposed.

      I answer her points “to” and “b”.

      1. If a priest celebrates what he does not know and what he does not understand, this would not be a sacred liturgy, but pure and authentic magic. And unfortunately, as I explain in mine Lectio, many of the young priests who celebrate with this rite do not know Latin, therefore they are not able to understand what they read in the collections, in the prefaces, in antiphons… So if on the one hand there is a priest who reads what he does not understand, on the other side of the faithful who do not know that rite, but who feel emotionally attracted to it for various reasons, all this is really equivalent to going to the magician's study, where what matters are the powerful and arcane magic formulas.

      2. I exercise the right of criticism within the limits granted and permitted by the Church and by the Code of Canon Law that it reads:

      «Can. 212 – § 1. The faithfuls, aware of their responsibility, they are required to observe with Christian obedience what the sacred Shepherds, as they represent Christ, they declare as teachers of the faith or dispose as heads of the Church.
      §2. The faithful have the right to manifest their needs to the Pastors of the Church, especially spiritual, and their desires.
      §3. In proportion to science, to the competence and prestige they enjoy, they have the right, and sometimes even duty, to express their thoughts to the sacred Pastors on what concerns the good of the Church; and to make it known to the other faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of the faith and customs and respect for the Pastors, also bearing in mind the common utility and dignity of the person ".

      he does not think that I can fall under §3 of this canon 212?

  14. Actually the location the eastern it is preferential but by no means unique since the churches were ancient, also oriented towards the autumn equinox and the solstices following a tradition so old that it is even lost in prehistory (by Aldo Tavolaro The fairy tales of heaven ). The most frequent orientation in sacred buildings is the East-West one because in the ancient liturgy it was expected that the officiating priest would be turned, both with the face and with the palm of the raised hands, towards the rising of the equinoctial sun. Consequently in the early Christian churches, when the altar was not against the wall, but placed between the priest and the faithful (as now after the conciliar reform) the east coincided with the entrance of the church, i.e. the facade like the basilica of S.. Pietro in Rome.

    When the position of the altar changed and was placed against the wall, the churches were built with the rear facing east, so the priest turned his back on the faithful and therefore at the entrance of the church, but he kept turning his face and the palms of his hands towards the rising sun. In other words, the priest stood still, but the church moved in the sense that the position of the facade and apses was reversed. Anyhow, it's obvious, the orientation remained equinoctial.

    This does not mean that there are churches built on the solstice axis, like the Romanesque rural church (XI sec.) S. Giorgio in the municipality of Bari (The right hand) which is oriented with the apse towards the point of the horizon where the sun rises at the winter solstice or the church of S. Maria and S. Giacomo on the island of S. Nicola delle Tremiti who turns the apse towards the rising of the Sun at the summer solstice. It should be remembered that the original nucleus of this church is prior to the year 1000.

    But if the orientation along the East-West axis, that is, in the direction of the points on the horizon where the Sun rises and sets only on the dates of the spring and autumn equinoxes, it is the same in all parts of the world, solstice orientation requires a calculation (or an observation) particular for any place on several parallels. For instance, the church of S. Giorgio, oriented towards the rising of the sun at the winter solstice, opens an angle of about 32 ° with the East-West axis, but if it were built in Turin (latitude 45 °) the angle would be over 34 °. If it arose in London (latitude 51 °) the angle of the maximum amplitude would be over 39 °. It follows that the solstice orientation was more elaborate, even though it descended from a direct observation allowed only by a horizon not impeded by mountains, hills or other obstacles.
    In the following article are well explained the influences on the orientations of the epochs preceding the Christianity Cosmogony and archetype of the Celestial Jerusalem in Santa Maria dei Cerei in Rometta.

  15. @Nomessatridentina

    but she starts from a false assumption: that the Rite of St. Pius V is a rite created to answer Luther, which is almost completely false: essentially it is the Mass that was celebrated by the Roman Curia in the 15th and 16th centuries, which is extremely similar to the Mass celebrated in Rome in the thirteenth century.

    The changes were mainly at the level of a few rubrics and phrases from the Ordinary (for example at the level of bows and elevations to the Consecration or by changing the sentence of the immixtio) and eliminating a number of saints from the Proper
    in the rest of the west, every diocese, metropolia or religious order had its own missal, that they all had anyway (except for the rite of Toledo) almost all of the Ordinary and most of the Proper in common with the Roman Missal.

    Making a general assessment of the work of Pius V, it can be said that in general he limited himself to leaving things as he had found them, even if they were no longer understood: think for example of the venerable Canon, the ancient Eucharistic prayer of the Roman Church (minimum 4th century in the oldest parts), which at that time was no longer understood and considered only as a series of prayers that surrounded the consecration, but that even if considered de facto 'useless’ one dared not touch precisely because it is known in ancient times.

    Protestant reformers instead made liturgy the theological ideas born in the early Middle Ages, considering 'medieval corruption’ a whole series of very ancient elements. think of the scholastic idea of ​​the consecration of only one species…

    [N.d.R. the message came with the final sentence truncated, maybe a word is missing, we just specify that nobody cut it]

  16. Father Ariel Caro,

    maybe mine will be a trivial question, maybe even silly, but I would like to ask you: the apostles and early Christians, as they celebrated the S. Mass?
    Certainly not with the missal of S. Pius V and not with the missal of S. Paul VI.
    But it, of course, they celebrated it.
    Thanks for everything.

    1. The apostles did not need the missal because in them the memory of the crucified and risen Jesus was still alive and present, on the contrary, they themselves were the living and present memory of Christ's sacrifice. The missal, of any era, should allow you to do the same thing, that is, to make mass a memorial by making the sacrifice of Christ current.

      1. I add in this regard that Jesus said “Do this in memory of me”, so without the “fate”, that is, without your conscious participation, the missal alone can do little. Of course, however, a bad mass does not help.

  17. AKITA apparitions approved by the Church Message of 13 October 1973 (third and final appearance)

    “My dear daughter, listen carefully to what I have to say to you. You will inform your supervisor”.

    After a moment of silence the Madonna continues saying:

    “As I told you, if men do not repent and improve themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a greater punishment than the Flood, such as has never been seen before. The fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a large part of humanity, the good guys as the bad guys, without sparing neither priests nor faithful. Survivors will find themselves so afflicted that they will envy the dead. The only weapons that will remain are the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Recite the prayers of the Rosary every day. With the Rosary pray for the Pope, bishops and priests.

    The work of the devil will also insinuate itself into the Church in such a way that cardinals will be opposed to other cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be despised and hindered by their confreres ... churches and altars plundered; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the Devil will push many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord. The devil will be relentless especially against the souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If the sins increase in number and severity, there will be no forgiveness for them…”

    I believe we are in full prophecy
    All against all…

    1. I don't understand your answer dear Father
      The post is not against you
      In a previous one you praise it as a serial “Killer”
      I have only posted a message given by the Virgin to Sister Agnes recognized by the Church. I have not spoken of revelations
      “..Church in such a way that cardinals will be seen to oppose other cardinals, bishops against bishops…..(goats against goats ..) ”
      I know there have always been clashes
      if it were not so, schisms would not be explained..heresies..etc
      I also know that for faith I don't need an apparition (I never believed in Gospe and do it yourself seers)I am neither a theologian nor a scholar but not even a fool.
      I would just like to understand
      Today after viewing his video(until the end)YouTube recommends me to watch another video priest Don Alberto Secci sui 50 years at some point
      (I don't remember the minute but I leave the link https://youtu.be/0HPeC_lq0nM) says
      “I always celebrate mass ..”
      And that's where I remembered Akita's message. These two videos brought me to reflection and conclusion
      From now on in any channel or blog I will stop posting. I leave you scholars and theologians (as it should be )discuss vetus …motu..etc etc.
      For my part, I will go to Mass as usual (Missal of Saint Paul VI).
      I only recommend not to provoke other schisms or heresies….
      Ps:I noticed that he deleted the post (if I'm wrong, correct me)of the medal given to the influencer Burioni Next time tell Bubù (between academics) that you don't have to deal with goats like me
      But with other scientists…

      A…

  18. Dear Paul,

    far from trivial and far from shocking, which instead is a question that many of those who presume to know the sacred liturgy should ask themselves, even if in fact they know it so well that they limit their knowledge to “yesterday”, immobilizing the “all over” in that “yesterday” fixed and static that must not change and pass.

    Obviously, as you well understand, I will provide you with an answer to so-called general lines, I could not do otherwise on such a complex and complex topic.

    In my lectio I explained that in the area of ​​dogmatics the sacramentary is one of the branches in its own way more complex and also difficult, because the evolution through the centuries of the discipline of the sacraments necessarily requires solid and profound historical foundations.

    We assume that the celebration of the Apostles and early Christians was divided into a ritual of offering gifts, bread and wine, similar to the ritual of offering in the Temple according to the Jewish ritual; then followed the memorial, that is, the repetition of what Christ the Lord did during the Last Supper. And one thing is indubitable: all this was certainly not done in the Latin language, that's for sure, just to clarify.

    In the early Church, the proclamation of the Gospel and its preaching to the people was not part of the same liturgical action, indeed we can presume, especially by reading the correspondence of the Blessed Apostle Paul, that “proclamation of the gospel” and “Eucharist”, were two different and distinct actions.

    Let me give an example: many gestures, signs and sacramentals that today are part of the liturgical action, in the apostolic age and in the first centuries to follow, they were completely unknown, starting from what is today the most widespread hallmark: the sign of the cross, or the blessing imparted by the Bishop or Priest who traces the holy blessing on the people or on an individual believer. Indeed, the Blessed Apostles blessed by laying their hands on their heads, while the sign of the cross with which the faithful mark themselves with the hand, was born around the tenth century and spread worldwide in the eleventh century.

    The first structure of what in future centuries and through progressive evolution, it will be Holy Mass, it will begin to come to life between the end of the third and the beginning of the fourth century, when a rite that includes the proclamation of the Gospel is outlined (Liturgy of the Word), offering of gifts (offertory) memorial (Consecratory prayer), thanksgiving.

    To have the first “skeleton” of a rite more or less similar to that celebrated today, it will be necessary to arrive at VII / VIII century. But if you give it “skeleton” we want instead to reach something similar to today's Mass, in this case you have to get to the X / 11th century.

    The subjects that I described in my lectio, the so-called and improperly called traditionalists, those who base their claims on an immutable rigidism, totally ignore, just to say one, that if the bishops of the first centuries had seen people go to confession assiduously, they would have yelled at sacrilege and heresy. Just so, because only between the seventh and eighth centuries the Sacrament of Penance, the confession, it becomes a repeatable sacrament. Before then it could only be administered and received once in a lifetime and never again. Therefore, those who look to the past and those who complain about the liturgical reform and the Missal of Saint Paul VI, he should reasonably assert that having made the confession repeatable that for centuries could only be administered once and never again, it was a subversion of something unchangeable.

    Nor do I enter into what has been the evolution of the sacrament of marriage, because there the issue would be much more complicated.

    Faced with a similar evolution of the discipline of the sacraments, through these few examples you understand well that pretending to remain fixed on a Missal given in 1570 – moreover, as I explained, modified several times over the following centuries – it means partly not knowing, in part to deny the fact that to reach the structure of a Eucharistic liturgy similar to that celebrated today, it took a thousand years.

    The discipline of the sacraments and with it the sacred rites, they have always been subject to continuous and even radical reforms, because the Church has periodically needed to adapt rites to new or different pastoral needs, always keeping the substance intact and unaltered, which is the Holy Eucharist. Over time, external forms change, remaining untouchable and unaltered the divine substance of what Christ God has given us by instituting the memorial of his passion, Death and Resurrection.

    1. I strongly contest this reconstruction of the history of the Holy Mass:
      in fact already St. Justin Martyr, in his First Apology, in the chapters 65 and 67, already shows a Eucharist made up of readings (Old and New Testaments) followed by a homily, a prayer of the faithful, a sort of offertory procession, the Eucharistic prayer proclaimed by the one who presided, a fraction (at least utilitarian) and communion
      this testimony can be dated during the reign of Antonino Pio (however, it is a ritual form that has already existed for some time), then by 161 a.C. and not towards the III-IV century. during that time we only have the first testimonials, mainly through mystagogical catechesis, that show us rites already structured with sometimes already a fair complexity, and with elements that have remained until now (for example, both Cyril of Jerusalem and Ambrose of Milan reported texts of anaphoras still in use)

      then in my opinion attempting a reconstruction of how the apostolic liturgy was celebrated is insane, data are scarce, moreover, there was probably no single form of celebration, as, having inherited the Jewish ritual model, which was divided into various ritual modes (sinagogale, send him, domestic etc) there were big differences, which can still be seen today in the various liturgies

      we are sure of one thing: the Christians of Ancient Rome and the Churches that received light from it did not celebrate using the Eucharistic prayer II

    2. I completely agree with what you wrote, in the first centuries the Eucharist was something very simple, the liturgy has truly changed with St. Gregory the Great, assuming that pomp that then passed in the Tridentine rite and that derives from the customs of the court of the Roman Empire.

      Mass began to be, as we know it after the year one thousand. In the first centuries, for instance, communion was done on the palms of the hands. Communion on the tongue began after the year one thousand. Furthermore, communion was made under the two species, we then communicated on our feet, not on your knees, since the canon 20 of the Council of Nicea prevented it, the kneelers in fact appeared after the Council of Trent.

      Quite appropriately some liturgist defined the Tridentine rite a modern rite and in fact it is given that it was born in the modern age, that is, in the sixteenth century, not in antiquity. The bubble the first lady by Pius V, states that Mass had been brought to the splendor of the ancient fathers, that is, substantially at the rite of Gregory the Great, thus skipping almost the first millennium. Someone is convinced that the Tridentine Mass derives equal since the last dinner and this is a historical forgery. There was someone who even claimed that Jesus had taken the apostles, to justify communion on the tongue, I consider this a hoax.

      The Eucharist was established within the Jewish Passover, Jewish Passover, our Lord was born into the Jewish people and was Jewish. The Tridentine peranto rite, as I said, it is modern, not ancient, even if I don't want to disrespect him.

      1. Truly the 'pomp’ it is largely due to the mixture with Gallican rites and expansive spirituality’ of the Germanic peoples
        San Gregorio made various modifications to the rite, how to move the Our Father, but I don't come to create a totally new ritual (or at least attributed to it, which is probably the truth, to justify the adoption of the Roman rite instead of the Gallican-Hispanic rites)

        The Tridentine rite’ it is modern in the sense that it is the result of a historical evolution in which primitive elements (Canon, fraction rites etc) subsequent items have been added (like priestly apologies). As already mentioned, Pius V simply froze the situation he found in Rome
        On the other hand, the Missal of Paul VI do not know how it can be defined, as it is an attempt to bring the Roman Rite back to a primitive condition (which was often more an invention of some liturgist who was convinced that the so-called 'Apostolic Tradition’ represented a photograph of the apostolic liturgy) combined with wanting to make it modern’
        Paradoxically the liturgical reform has blown up (by law or in fact) many truly primitive elements, like the Roman Canon (in fact fallen into disuse) or the communion brought to the Pope during the Mass in St. Peter's (wreck of the most venerable antiquity, of an era when not even the Pope could take the Eucharist alone, because it was a gift)

  19. “These are the signs that will accompany those who have believed: in my name the demons will drive out; they will speak in new languages; they will take snakes in their hands; even if they drink some poison, they will have no harm; they will lay hands on the sick and they will heal”

    HOW can we put it. Still making controversy?

  20. Dear p. Ariel,
    this discussion made sense when liturgical reform was introduced, implemented since 1964, before the end of the council, and people have undergone a change (positive, or a negative trauma) compared to a tradition in which they had grown up. You may have read Don Camillo and Don Chichì about Guareschi (released by censorship like Don Camillo and the young people of today in 1966, now restored). You can see it there.
    But in 55 years the perception of the sacred space has changed, auditory (microphones), visual (lights). I saw some mass with the old garden, nothing wrong, but it is a thing for few.
    More currently: the reformers feared what happened: the devastation of churches due to misunderstanding liturgical fervor, that continues. In a volume by Treccani for the 150th anniversary of the Unification of Italy I have summarized it. L’idea “nostalgic” of a (alleged) primitive church eliminated altars, the hated Baroque or Renaissance systems (“modern”, SEC. XVI-XVIII), he dispersed statues and paintings with irreparable damage. Ancient churches are defaced by frightening priests, with the state that has not opposed cowardly, while having the competence (Oh yeah, this ha). The CEI documents are terrible, ignorant bishops, worse priests and friars, the faithfuls, help!
    If it is anachronistic to pretend to live in the 19th century, it is criminal and stupid to deface churches built at that time with the creativity of ignorant architects in the service of illiterate bishops. Whenever I enter (often) in a church I cry not for the rite, but for the destruction, past, present and future.

  21. Dear Don Ariel,

    they are, this video only increases my confusion, I went to mass in half of Europe, there is no mass equal to the other, parishes are a spiritual if not heretical desert, the non-existent catechism, phrases and gestures of the faithful and sometimes of the religious make them doubt their faith.

    With the ICRSS priests I found uniform pastoral care and seriousness, churches full of worshipers of all ages not the usual old men.
    That all this does not depend on the rite?

    Furthermore, in the Tridentine rite the centrality of Christ and his sacrifice seemed immediately evident to me, which I never understood well in the new rite (born after the reform) despite the many masses I attended.

    I can also assure you that the Protestant cults are practically identical to the new mass. As far as the Masons are concerned, they say, John XXIII was an initiate Freemason, while John Paul II, he had relations with Freemasonry without ever having started.

    I think that the drift of the church from Christ is such as to fear a shipwreck, I am not convinced that prohibiting a liturgy that places Christ at the center is the solution.
    Praised be Jesus Christ.

    1. One who accuses two Holy Pontiffs of being: one, an initiated mason, the other in relations with Freemasonry, sincerely does not deserve an answer.
      Therefore, continue to defend the aesthetic emotion of his ritual, because it is completely useless to explain, to someone like you, that Christ, which is the cornerstone, his Church built it on Peter.
      Explaining it all would be wasted time.
      Therefore: good “aesthetic mass”, the “spiritual fruits” products from which, he well illustrated them in his comment in which he attacks the Vicar of Christ on earth to defend his subjective and emotional … “in my view … but I feel that …”.

    2. Emanuele, it is known, as well as obvious, that when Freemasonry wants to discredit some well-known or powerful person who does not intend to start, spreads the false news that the victim is or was an affiliate.

      1. Exact
        In fact, who says that John XXIII was a Freemason and that John Paul was somehow adherent to a sort of para masonry?
        Gioele Magaldi says it in his book best seller titled "Freemasons" on the Ur Lodges that is the international Supermassonerie.
        And who is Gioele Magaldi?
        A freemason from the later dissociated Grand Orient of Italy who founded the Great Democratic Orient of which he is still its Grand Master.
        He says he has proof (if it has they are "home made tests", that is, evidence of an affiliation produced by themselves (typical of constitutionally false Freemasons such as Judah) i.e. fake (pull them out).

        Another who overshadows something like this is the famous Jesuit Malachi Martin who was present at the reading of the third secret of Fatima with Cardinal Bea before John XXIII. After that he asked and obtained dispensation from the priestly ministry and became famous in the United States. Net of the "thickness" of Malachi Martin, obviously I don't believe in that insinuation.

  22. Dear Gsimy,

    what I was interested in saying is that the Eucharist or parts of it, as Don Ariel rightly said, it has changed over the centuries several times. If we went back to the celebrations of the early Church we would find simple masses, there was not even a stone altar, but a simple wooden table.

    I seem to have seen a fresco depicting the Eucharist of the first Christian communities, they were all sitting around tables in practice it resembled a normal dinner. I believe that the early Church wanted to imitate exactly what Jesus and the apostles had done at the last supper, Jesus instituted the Eucharist in the context of the Easter dinner.

    I don't mean to say we should go back to that, I only want to say that the Mass has changed constantly, therefore whoever calls the Mass of Pius V “ever”, does this Missal wrong, mythologizing it and sinning with demagoguery. He would like to enhance it but in reality it makes him hateful, because it makes it a flag, a symbol, built on false arguments that are not reflected in history.

    Who can deny that the income does not come from the entrance ceremony of the emperor and the court of Rome? How can you deny that all the pomp, the sumptuousness of the vestments and the Tridentine liturgy, that I don't mind at all, was introduced in the Middle Ages, but it was unknown in ancient times?

    Communion on the language then, it is known that it was unknown until at least the ninth century, at the gates of the year one thousand, while communion was distributed only on the palm of the hands in the shape of a cross.
    It is said that it was celebrated with unleavened bread but also…

    1. I am very interested in ancient liturgy, but it is the first time that I hear of a fresco depicting the primitive Eucharist. if it exists, show us

      for the rest, the only two sources that describe the primitive liturgy are:
      – Didachè 9-11 (and its subsequent parallel in the Apostolic Constitution 7) which shows what probably paleo-anaphoras with brief ritual indications
      – the aforementioned First apologia, who makes two brief descriptions of two Eucharists (a post-baptismal and a Sunday) from which we can see that the skeleton of the structure of the Eucharist was already what we know today

      if we accept the dating of the so-called Apostolic Tradition to the third century, we see that the structure has become fixed and has remained

      from these sources (to another) we can see that the first communities did not interpret the 'This fairies in memorial to me!’ like the repetition of the Last Supper, but like repeating the ritual gestures made by Jesus, or take bread and wine, give thanks (which was a specific type of prayer in Judaism, a sort of declaration of alliance, the all), break the bread and give the elements by declaring that they were the Body and the Blood.

      then actually the process of 'complexification’ it is questionable as the only key, for example we know that in the 6th-10th century the Gallican-Mozarabic rites had complex fractions, which have been reduced. or the rites of communion have lost archaic details (as the prohibition for the principal celebrant to take communion on his own) for needs…

    2. anyway, since the refrain is' the liturgy has always changed’ check it at least for the Roman one:
      – the Roman canon in archaic form has existed since at least the fourth century (this is testified by Ambrogio's de Sacramentiis and a letter from North African bishops) and in present form at least from the 6th century. there is still in the FO, but in fact it is largely in disuse and has ceased to be the only Eucharistic prayer of the Rite, as it has been since we have documented sources (and in a way that doesn't exist in any other rite
      – the Libera nos exists in the form of the FS already in the Gelasian Sacramentary, but it has been changed
      – the rite of fraction in ancient times was immediately after the Per ipsum… before being interpolated by the Our Father. the new rite took him further away from the anaphora, at a time when no one pays attention because they are busy shaking hands
      – the prayer of the blessing of the water of the FS is found in a little shape’ simplified in the Gelasian, and in its present form in later sources. in the FO it was replaced by prayers totally composed from scratch

      therefore the liturgical reform has eliminated (in fact or by law) also a whole series of elements of venerable antiquity, that seriously had never changed

      1. I answer you and several others with an example, which is a fact: on weekdays, if I have to celebrate in suffrage of the dead, I have always used mostly the III Eucharistic Prayer, inside which there is a beautiful suffrage prayer. On Saturday, on Sunday and for all holidays, I have always used the Roman Canon. When I happened to celebrate for assemblies where teenagers and young people were present, I used the IV Eucharistic Prayer, within which there is a truly splendid catechesis that starts from the mystery of the creation of the world up to the sacrifice of the cross; because the sacred liturgy is also this: element of high catechesis.

        I never used, since I am a priest, the Second Eucharistic Prayer, the one that many of my brothers use, as they say to … breakfast, lunch and dinner. As we know it is the shortest prayer; and I limit myself only to “short” to say nothing more. In fact, as you know, some priests on Sunday need brevity, because then having to ramble for 30/40 minutes of homily, on everything else you have to hurry. Indeed, if the homily lasts an average of half an hour, if then before the end of Sunday Mass there are 7/8 minutes of parish announcements, with lots of witty jokes and greetings to present and absent, on the rest we have to tighten the time, in the?

        Example: a parish priest with long experience, held by his bishop in all kinds of positions at the diocesan level, thus he distributed the time for Sunday Mass in one of the most populous historical parishes in that diocese: Homily 32 minutes, including two sensational heresies in the field of Christology and pneumatology pronounced in the first four minutes; parish announcements at the end of Mass, including greetings and witty jokes, 8 minutes and a half; recitation of the II Eucharistic Prayer from after Spirit to doxology Per ipsum 3 minutes and a half, time for the consecration of the sacred species of bread and wine 1 minute e 3 seconds.

        What parish priest, having 2 Weekday Masses e 4 domenicali, he asked me years ago if I could celebrate one in the feria and one on Sunday, which I gladly accepted. After 10 these days I was challenged:

        1. to celebrate a weekday Mass 35/40 minutes, it is an enormous amount of time, several of the people who come to Mass at 8 in the morning at 8.30 they have to go to work;
        2. there is no need to pause for silence after the proclamation of the Gospel and after Communion, especially on weekdays;
        3. a weekday Mass cannot last longer than 15 minutes;
        4. it is good to use the Second Eucharistic Prayer, because it is there “ancient apostolic prayer” and then it is the shortest and most incisive;
        5. you do not need to take your Communion plate with you because it has not been used for many years now and it is an outdated accessory;
        6. Communion must be given on the hands and you, not to give it on the hands and give it on the mouth, purposely distribute Communion under the two species, this is not good because Christ said “take and eat” he said “take and take”;
        7. do not use the Roman Canon anymore because it is long and pompous, it is a post-Tridentine Baroque creation;
        8. on the last Sunday you allowed yourself to say to the assembly, before the blessing, that no one had to move from the benches until the celebrant returned to the sacristy because it was not good for people to run away as soon as the blessing was given while the priest kissed the altar; people are free to come and go whenever they want and it is not the case that you teach them etiquette;
        9. after Communion you clean your fingers in the chalice by drinking a first and a second time, and then “sciacquetti” all like a housewife who must make the dishes shine;

        I state that this priest was responsible, For years, of the liturgical office; and forget about which diocese, forget.

        Before commenting I must answer one by one to all nine of these points:

        1. when in San Pio da Pietrelcina they scolded that they were “too long” in the celebration of Holy Mass, he replied: "I didn't know they put the watch on Calvary !?»;
        2. spaces of silence for meditation, prayer and thanksgiving, they are fundamental in the sacred liturgy, because as the mystery of revelation teaches, both in the Old and New Testaments, silence is that privileged space in which God speaks to man;
        3. no one can nor has ever established a “canonical time” for the duration of a Holy Mass;
        4. the Second Eucharistic Prayer is absolutely not the "oldest prayer", it was created at the table in recent times, if he says – and it seems to be reliable too – which was written at the table of a Roman tavern at the end of lunch by some liturgists during the assembly of Vatican Council II;
        5. the use of the plate for Communion is no longer mandatory but is highly recommended, and in this regard it is mentioned in no. 118 of the General Order of the Roman Missal;
        6. without contravening the provisions given by the Italian Episcopal Conference, I have never given Holy Communion on anyone's hands, taking advantage of the faculty fully granted by the appropriate decree of the Bishops of Italy to be able to give it under the two species, that is, dipping the sacred host in the Blood of Christ and offering it to the mouth of the faithful saying “the Body and Blood of Christ”, therefore they are in full compliance with the rules and provisions given by the Bishops regarding the directives given on the distribution of the Most Holy Eucharist;
        7. the Roman Canon is not one “pompous post-Tridentine baroque creation” but it is the oldest Eucharistic prayer that has come down to the present day;
        8. educate the People of God and liturgical assemblies, it is a duty and an obligation which the priest cannot and must not escape, therefore, to those who had not been properly educated, it is good to remember that the faithful must not move towards the exit of the Church until the celebrant has left the presbyterate, if then a final song is performed, in that case, do not move from the benches to the exit until the singing is finished;
        9. wipe your fingers in the empty chalice after coming into contact with the Most Holy Eucharist and then drink its contents, it is a form of sacred respect for the Body of Christ; the sacred vessels are called precisely “sacred” according to the mystery they contain and for this reason they are certainly not comparable to dishes, their proper purification is important because they contained the Body and Blood of Christ and no fragment should ever remain within them.

        Later I was called to the competent office of that diocese where the monsignorotto already catechized by this parish priest, he asked me: « … felt, but you, how long it takes to celebrate a weekday Mass? I replied: «… honestly I do not know, because I never measured time, rather tell me instead: Christ, how long it took to die and rise from the dead?».

        Given that I have not told at all one of the worst experiences, because I prefer to keep the worst ones for myself and avoid spreading further suffering and scandal among the faithful, wonder: you want me not to understand certain faithful who in the face of more or less cases of this kind go to celebrations with the The old rite of the Mass?

        I understand both the bitterness and the reaction, but, while these subjects speak and act as emotional, I speak and act as a priest, namely: all of these “tridentinoni” catapulted into the “most holy mass ever”, not only to priests like me have never supported and protected them, but when we were victims of injustice, harassment and even real persecution, they didn't run to our rescue at all, they shrugged, they did not care and they fled both the reality and their responsibilities as lay Catholics going to look for a world that in fact – like it or not – it no longer exists. And to us they left us to feed the beasts, because it was much easier to get drunk Latin, instead of supporting those priests who, one way or another, always at their own risk, they tried to oppose the collapse that we have today.
        For this repeat: certain people, a Mass with the Missal of Saint Pius V, I wouldn't celebrate it I am not dead, considering that their own, on the beatings we received, they added their total and insensitive indifference, while we, hunched over by the woods, we walked lame and aching, while they pretended not to see and turned their backs they went intoxicated with old, emotional and aesthetic Latin.

        Reality is not always beautiful, just as the truth is not always pleasant, but this is reality, this is the truth. And as, I carry out the sacred ministry, not who once a week goes to get drunk tridentinismi, I hope nobody has the audacity to reply … No, No! Things are not this way! Series: avoid adding sticks to the sticks and sprinkle salt on the wounds of many priests who bleed, while the faithful take the most emotional path, easy and de-empowering, considering oneself in the just that the most just cannot be done.

  23. When the mass was in Latin the simple people they had and elementary, while the priest said mass, they prayed on their own, or they recited the Rosary, and stopped only at the Consecration, preaching and final blessing.
    The New Mass serves to make the faithful better participate in the celebration!
    It is true that the current Mass should be improved at certain times, however Benedict XVI was wrong to do this “present” ai Lefbvriani, and their supporters, since their hatred, more than at mass, it is towards the Second Vatican Council.

    1. And she is wrong to believe that it was a gift to the Lefrevians. It was necessary to liberalize the Vetus Bear after the removal of the excommunication from the Lefrevians, to make it clear that the excommunication had nothing to do with the liturgical rite they followed. Rite that (in parentheses) it was not the ancient rite, but the ordinary one before the liturgical reform they rejected.

      1. Dear Stephen,

        the excommunication of the Lefebvrians was removed, but they themselves expel themselves from the church every time they say that Vatican Council II is heretical.
        More than necessary! “liberalize the Vetus ordo”, it was better to order them to join the ranks, or leave them in the midst of the many sedevacantist sects.

        1. Certain, to say that CVII is heretical is a self-heretic game. However, it is not just a nonsense, it is also a generalization mistake, certainly boorish and ignorant, who cross-eyed the Council keeping in mind the heresies that circulated freely in the post-conciliar Church.

          Of course, those who speak in this way discredit themselves, but why stigmatize the The old order? And’ a treasure of the Church! How do you abandon it to damnation of memory like the mass of the traditionalists, of the nostalgic dell’ancien régime, of the ignorant who give themselves airs?

          Because the Church should not take it back, maybe inviting more people to hang out with her, if only to dilute the concentration of peasants with the stench under the nose between the counters? Why not celebrate it perhaps in San Pietro on one or more occasions during the year?

          This division into factions between heretics in rainbow vestments and heretics with monocle and pigtail is certainly the work of the devil. The bride's dress comes out gross and torn, and his face defaced to such an extent that it hurts the heart.

          1. Stefano,

            I do not condemn the the old order a priori, but most of the faithful who follow this rite are firm in the catechism of Saint Pius X and consider the magisterium of the Church concluded with the death of Pius XII.
            The The old order itself is not bad, but it is exploited by the cattofarisei (Traditionalists).

          2. Caro Michele,

            I am part of the discussion between you and Stefano: let alone if I am against! As I explained in my long answer below, between the 2010 and 2011 I taught several Italian and foreign priests to celebrate with the “Tridentine missal”.

            Everything that is established and given by a Supreme Pontiff, in any matter, may his name be Pius XII, Benedict XVI or Francis I, for me it is an element to be accepted and spread.

            Not only, Bishops, they didn't welcome that Motu Proprio, because, as I have already explained, several of them also hurried to search in their presbyters for old priests able to celebrate with that Missal, having previously celebrated and been trained in that rite and consecrated priests in that rite.

            For any priest not grown up and not trained in that rite, celebrating with the Missal of Saint Pius V is not an easy thing, especially if you don't know Latin well. Indeed, as I explained in mine Lectio, that rite is part of an ecclesial and above all pastoral dimension that no longer exists today. And if you don't know the story, the ecclesial and pastoral dimension that produced that rite, instead of celebrating, you only risk setting up a low and low level performance.

            Because instead for me, that I was also born in 1963 and raised with the Missal of Saint Paul VI given in 1969, instead, the approach with that rite was possible? For the simple fact that I have devoted a lot of time and in-depth studies to dogmatics in general, to sacramental dogmatics in particular and above all to the history of dogmatic and sacramental theology, therefore I knew, line by line, edition by edition modified and given through the centuries, what the Missal of St. Pius V was.

            The good intentions of Benedict XVI are out of the question, as are those of the Bishops and Priests who have welcomed that Motu Proprio, but, when we saw the kind of public and critical subjects and divisors they gathered around that Missal, as I explained in several replies to the various comments, we hurriedly put it back on the library shelf.

            And what I say – with all due respect to those who contested me – numerous bishops and priests are made, anything but prevented, they can confirm.
            I'm not the one lying, instead are those people who would like to understand that around the “Tridentine” faithful congregate thirsty for sacredness and prayer, of young people looking for purity and so on … lie, lie, lie! In fact I say more: they lie knowing ideologically that they are lying, because those who contested me in those tones, putting inexistent wonderful assemblies, they are the first to enter and leave that Holy Mass, despising the Holy Pontiff Paul VI, liturgical reform and everything “heretical council” Vatican.

            I'll just tell you one fact, proven and documented, why well 18 people can confirm what I will tell now, also because often, when I get angry, then I leave the memory in time. It happened once, in 2012, who was asked if I could celebrate for an assembly with that Missal, and I accepted.
            Therefore …

            1. i due “altar” two young people were supposed to assist me “crazy queens“, indeed I assume a real couple of sweethearts; and sincerely – without anyone offending and discriminating – I can guarantee that together with me at the altar, due “crazy queens” we are not missed by the broken headphones ;

            2. with an arrogance that I don't tell you, another of the bosses arrives, a wealthy, successful sixty-year-old lawyer who turned out with two active divorces behind him and with a new partner much younger than he, also present at that “theatrical representation”, who in a peremptory tone asks me if I had the hat because he hadn't seen it. I replied “Of course not!” And I replied: “look, I have only one beaver saturn, gift of a dear person, that I wear three or four times a year in winter only when it is very cold. I don't have any other headgear”. he replied: “EH, but it is not a good thing!”. In a very irritated way, I pointed out to him that in the typical edition of the Missal of 1962 the regulations did not provide for the celebrant to go to the altar with his head covered, because the obligation to use the hat had been abolished. To which he replies: “Of, but that is the Missal of John XXIII, who was already a heretical missal, we use the previous edition”.

            Well, you want to know what I answered? Exactly this: “Feel good, dear lawyer, now you take these two by the arm frocetti already dressed in the black dress and the surplice of crenellated lace and together with them see to go fuck off!”. And having said that, incidentally, I apologize to the readers, but I would feel to say the least a hypocrite to write “affan….”, why didn't I tell him “affan ” and “four dots” I really said fuck off and as I said I bring it back.

            All expressed with the utmost respect for gays, who among them do not hesitate to give themselves fags, starting from my great and late friend Paolo Poli who called them to certain types “hysterical fraud” … and if it wasn't a gay guy, finished and finished this great master of Italian theater, I really don't know who ever could be.

            And in that 2012 I ceased to celebrate publicly with that Missal, like many of my other confreres who have found themselves in similar situations which are by no means borderline cases or isolated cases. This without taking anything away from the many good people who mostly embittered by the priests who wreak havoc on the liturgy in the worst ways, between extravagance and abuse bordering on sacrilege, they seek refuge in that rite; and I understand them, as I said and repeated.

            In conclusion: some people should listen and treasure the experiences of us Priests, just because, to celebrate, we are; so it is we who have often found ourselves in situations of this kind, and still I repeat a few times.

  24. I only happened to participate once, honestly out of curiosity, at a Tridentine mass held in my diocese. Within my limits, I have not seen anything but nothing that could not be present in a regular mass if only done properly. I perfectly understand that in the face of masses ruined by creepy music, with rhythms and lyrics from a romantic Italian song, or various liturgical sloppes, one feels the instinct to take refuge in a ritual that places the emphasis on form and recollection, but there are obvious problems even that rite and the most evident is that of language. If to escape from an objectively often ugly aesthetic one takes refuge in a retro aesthetic one always remains in the field of appearance , and I don't know how much closer we get to the substance. I give an example seen in that celebration, without wanting to condemn the people of the example in any way, because they are two attitudes that I have been guilty of in various ways too. On the next bench there was a mother and a daughter, both with traditional veil: the first passed the whole rite in a sort of poignant and very externalized mystical passion, the second to check the phone. I repeat, it is not a pointing finger, but I just want to say that human weaknesses are more powerful than any ritual form; perhaps in the end it is better to try everyone to honor God with a single imperfect rite rather than to create a space in which, by presumption of perfection, certain naturals can be encysted more easily (but harmful)…

  25. Look at that 90% the people who participate in the Ancient Rite do not care what the mass was “of origins”. They are faithful, not scholars or archaeologists. What they appreciate is solemnity, the order, the composure of codified gestures that communicate respect and adoration to God. That's it.

    She, come Don Ariel, he prefers to attack traditionalists who exist more in your imagination than in reality, and, in the name of criticism (legitimate) to some of their idiosyncratic flaws (which “group” it has none?) , he will also enjoy seeing them deprived of this gift, and forced to wander from one parish to another in search of a priest who does not absorb them with modernist sermons and violates them with sloppy liturgies.

    A recent survey showed that the 70% of American Catholics do not believe in the Royal Presence. He wants to try to do the same survey among the faithful of the Vetus Ordo? In France the 2% of the population goes to mass every Sunday. He wants to know the percentages among the faithful Vetus Ordo?

    But of all this, a lei e a Don Ariel, it doesn't matter. Why Is That, clearly, the problem of the Church today is the “stiffness”. Come no.

    1. … therefore, when I have heard numerous over the years – and I repeat very many – goers of this venerable rite who asserted such things as broken disks:

      1. Paul VI's Mass is a false Mass built to please modernists and Protestants;
      2. Paul VI's Mass abolished the aspect of the Eucharist as a sacrifice ;
      3. Vatican Council II is the origin of all the current evils of the Church ;
      4. whoever wants to participate in the true Mass can only participate in the “always mass” ;
      5. the priests who celebrate with the The old order is posted those who celebrate with the New Order of the Mass No ;
      6. etc. … etc. …

      … I should infer that all the many people who have said and repeated things to me over the years, they exist only in my imagination, as she asserts?
      For case, is perhaps giving me a liar?

      Mind you: if I, which I also taught between 2010 and 2011 to several Italian and foreign priests to celebrate adequately with the Missal of Saint Pius V, after knowing and touching the nature and the hatred of most of the faithful who participate in the Mass celebrated with this rite, I came to invoke that the Motu Proprio which allows its use to be revoked, he does not believe that he has known many and many people who have produced numerous negative experiences in me? And I assure you that I can distinguish i “isolated cases” o i “almost limit” from a thought, a style and a widespread costume that she stubbornly denies, that is, the contempt on the part of these people towards “new Church born from the council”, as they call it.

      He does not believe that people who use this rite to reject liturgical reform and an entire council, have appeared to my eyes so numerous and harmful to the point of leading me to certain obvious conclusions and wishes?

      If you ask, before saying that certain people and situations exist only in my imagination.

      I add and conclude: you do not even imagine how many and numerous messages we have trashed at our editorial office, written by people who on the one hand magnified this most holy rite, on the other hand, they threw avalanches of hateful manure on John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II … and we don't talk about Francesco I.
      Here, they are all people who go intoxicated every Sunday with “Latin Tridentine magic”, after having despised the Church, the Popes, the Bishops and Priests who “celebrate with the Bugninian Masonic missal”. But … eh, however they receive the Most Holy Body of Christ kneeling at the balustrade, this is what matters: the external form that excites so much.

      1. Well, Protestant mass, although more journalistic than scientific expression, it indicates not only or not so much the affinities of the form of the New Mass with some Protestant rites, as much as the intentions from which it was born:

        “Father Annibale Bugnini, executor of the liturgical reform, he clearly confessed that this was the case: to facilitate the journey of union for our separated brothers, discarding any obstacle that could have constituted even a shadow of the risk of a stumbling block or of sorrow.

        Paul VI himself confided to his friend, the writer Jean Guitton, that his intention to change the Mass came from the desire for rapprochement with the Protestants. Guitton testifies:
        Paul VI's intention on what is commonly called Mass, it was to reform the Catholic liturgy so that it could coincide with the Protestant liturgy. There was an ecumenical intention in Paul VI to remove, or at least to correct, or at least to weaken, what was too Catholic in the traditional sense in the Mass and, I repeat, to bring the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass”.
        http://www.unavox.it/ArtDiversi/DIV1976_Le_Sel_Messa_di_Lutero_7.html#14_

        Or these claims are fake?

  26. I carry this explanation

    It is appropriate to distinguish between the celebration of the agape the fraternal meal and that of the Eucharist, which originally followed agape and later preceded it. I have dealt with the problem in detail in my work Beracha.

    In the first centuries, when the number of community members was still limited, the same arrangement of seats had been kept in faithful imitation of the Last Supper, especially since it corresponded to the customs of the time.

    Several domestic churches of the early Church, whose foundations were found in the Alpine regions, they prove it clearly. In the center of a relatively small room - approx 5 x 12,5 meters -, there is a semicircular stone bench, capacious from fifteen to twenty seats. In the cities, where the number of the faithful was higher, he had to add additional tables. The bishop and priests were seated at one of them, the faithful in others, men and women separately.

    In the Letter to the Galatians (2,11-12), the apostle Paul reproaches the apostle Peter for taking food with the converted Jews, avoiding the converted pagans. While for shared meals, the agapi, he was sitting at some tables, for the celebration of the Eucharist we got up and went to stand behind the celebrant.

  27. Dear Don Ariel,
    I have a comment on the topic he analyzed in his video. I always wanted the homily of the celebrant to help the faithful understand the Word of God but also to move on to the celebration of the Eucharistic liturgy precisely by making the words of the anaphoras understood since the Liturgy is also considered in some way one of the streams of Revelation.
    Unfortunately very few priests do it. For example, consider the second Eucharistic prayer. Why never comment on the expression : ” and we thank You for admitting us to Your Presence to perform priestly service ” or “celebrating the memorial of the death and resurrection of your Son “? I think that deepening these expressions and other of the four Eucharistic prayers would greatly help the faithful to enter into the mystery of the Eucharist. She who thinks about it?

  28. He did well p. Ariel to remember that the reform launched by S. Paul VI, as far as it can be improved, retains the substance of the sacrament. About the use of the missal of S. Pio V (in the version of 1962) I agree with his severe criticism of the ideological distortions that created the myth of “always mass” and the anti-myth of “Mass Protestantism”. And priests who refuse ancient mass in contexts polluted by resentment towards the Holy See or by empty aestheticism do well.. Celebrating in these cases would truly dance around the golden calf.
    I beg to differ (hoping to remain on Patmos Island anyway) about the proposed remedy: why deny the VO to those who want to approach it with the intent to sanctify themselves with this lex orandi? If anything, the motu proprio needs wise custodians who keep the characters she painted at bay, allow me to say, it was better coordinated with the ordinary form. It wasn't really possible to at least get to a shared calendar?
    At last, it seems to me that you are suggesting a missal that will put an end to this difficult dichotomy. And, if I understand , to intervene on the Pauline missal with the recovery of some elements of the tradition. It was an idea expressed by Ratzinger before the pontificate, when he hoped for a new liturgical movement. I am afraid it is the classic solution that nobody would like for myopia: some would shout at the Tridentine restoration, others to the betrayal of the missal plan. What room for maneuver the Holy See has in such a quarrelsome Church (see Germany)?

  29. Objectively there is an implicit (I repeat: implied) schismatic streak in participating in these masses, ideological rather than theological. But the implicit schismatic streak is opposed to those who have taken possession of the Church (also through the liturgy), come Lercaro, Dossetti (who boasted of having oriented the vote of the council on the liturgy thanks to his parliamentary experience with the constituent; it is written), to Bughini or whatever it was called [N.d.R. Annibale Bugnini], to their grandchildren and grandchildren Alberigo, Melloni, Bianchi. They ideologized the church as “reserve of the republic” from the left. For them, everything was ideology (Lercaro was objectively unstable, Dossetti wrote the texts).

    Freemasonry is not interested in influencing the Catholic liturgy. Rather there was a Northern European liturgical movement on which supporters of a Catholic left jumped. Furthermore, feminist ideology is arriving in Northern Europe, that will prevail, and the liturgy will follow. You haven't seen anything yet: I had the office on Muenster's Domplatz and I saw the Katholikentag in Münster 2018 complete with a nice Swedish bishop. On the other side (will have verified; I do) there is a weld between vetus ordo and political right. Dear p. Ariel, She wants too much, to agree on two ideological extremes with theology: ideology cares about theology. Then who writes about what the early church was like: that means? In nuce the Church was in the upper room after the Resurrection, but as a Catholic she has extended to the Gentiles, he got to know Greek philosophy, Roman law, the…

    1. The schismatic vein may be present in some people or in some groups, but it would be wrong to go along with it by exacerbating the spirits and suggesting that mere participation in the rite is a schismatic or para-schismatic act.
      The other part, worry about the implicit schism of minority groups is like wanting to remove the straw without taking care of the beam. An underground schism has been taking place in the Church since the post-Council (as she also noticed) which has dramatically enlarged the tectonic fault that opened in the last century with modernist heresy. If the Church does not know how to recompose these divisions (and everything suggests that he will not be able to do it) the situation will be taken in hand by Christ himself.

      1. This his, it is not simple common sense, but "… the wisdom that comes from the mouth of the Most High, reaching out» (wisdom that comes from the mouth of the Most High)

  30. Dear don Ariel, I am a simple lay faithful (without theological training) who attends the S. Mass in an ancient rite for exactly ten years and I can tell you that I really like it because it seems to me that it has a greater sense of the sacred and the homilies that I have listened to (sometimes also of priests of the Fraternity S. Pius X, but I have never attended) I like them very much because they urge you to have an open look at the supernatural, rather than just talking about social problems (like immigration, the price of oil and tomatoes: believe me, I'm not kidding). Even if I find his proposal excessive, thank you for the urge to reflect. Unfortunately I also noticed that the lay faithful like me who attend these Masses are “hard tests” and, from a human point of view, I didn't feel comfortable there and not even a real friendship was born. This a little’ disappointed me. Maybe, when I will be a while’ freer from work, I'd like to write you an email in private. I thank you again and pray for priests like you, entrusting them to S. Michele Arcangelo and remembering them in about ten of the Rosary.

  31. I would recommend to Mr. “nomessatridentine” – who delights in copying past obscene magazines without mentioning the title or the author – to spare us the imaginative historical reconstructions of the bad teachers Carmen Hernandez and Pedro Farnes and the pseudo sacramental theology of the false prophet Kiko Arguello.
    He, as a good neocatechumen, is absolutely unaware of what he writes, parrot repeating the same concepts expressed by the first of the volumes, inspired word by word by the devil, from “Orientations to the teams of the catechists for the conversion phase”.
    I'm certainly not Ari Ariel's defense attorney, but I strongly doubt that he proposed the abolition of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum on the basis of the arguments presented by the kikiano figuro.
    Go back to preach the Passover seder in the maze of his Gnostic-Jewish-Lutheran sect, receptacle of the worst sacrileges against the Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1. Far be it from me to be a moderator, but I could humbly advise you not to turn comments into personal attacks? I ask him for the building of all of us.

      1. Dear Stefano what can you do? It must be the consequence of lockdown and not only that due to Covid19. Some people are unable to talk peacefully, they can't do anything but be violent, aggressive.
        We spread a veil of mercy and patience!

        1. I'm sorry and I sincerely apologize. It was not my intention to argue but I was deceived by some concepts that she expressed that reminded me of Carmen Hernandez's catechesis on the Eucharist. Unfortunately,, having spent several years within the Way, I struggle to moderate the language when I think I am dealing with one of them, looking back on the many humiliations suffered.
          I am mortified by the misunderstanding and I apologize again.

  32. Someone please, can you explain to me what it means that in the Tridentine Mass there is more sense of the sacred? What is meant by sense of the sacred? Gregorian chants perhaps? To tell the truth, they can also be sung in the Mass of Paul VI.

    Heavy vestments? If I'm not mistaken, they can also be used in the Mass of Paul VI, the Latin language?
    Even the Mass of Paul VI can be celebrated in Latin.

    The position coram Deo? I attended a Mass of Paul VI at an altar ad paretes,in which the priest celebrated coram Deo.

    So someone explain to me, Please, in what sense does the Mass of Pius V convey more sacredness?

    I think the two rites are very similar,rather the same rite, but that of Pope Paul VI is more suitable for ecclesiology and the current culture and mentality.

    I have rather the feeling that the Tridentine Mass, for some, is quite a fashion, like those young priests dressed in the tricorn hat. And’ a desire for novelty, not back to old.

    1. If they are the exact same rite, try to put the two ordinary together and see how similar they are. then do the same with the storm and evaluate.

      then if they are the exact same rite, how can he say that the Ordinary Form is more suitable for present times. if they are the same ritual, they are both eligible…

      Then personally I am the biggest advocate of “reform of the reform” at least for what concerns the ordinary, and the Extraordinary Form would gain only by having things like the possibility of having the sung orations and the readings in Italian, a prayer of the faithful, a third reading, and the Ordinary Form would benefit from having an annual and non-three-year cycle of readings, greater 'fixity’ in the use of Eucharistic prayers, the old offertory and the old rite of fraction, greater use of singing in readings and prayers etc..

  33. And’ a copy and paste

    “It is true that the missal in use until the post-conciliar reform was codified by Saint Pius V (sixteenth century), my order, that is, the structure and the texts, the traditional mass dates back to St. Gregory the Great (6th century) so much so that it can rightly be called also Gregorian Mass ". You can try it instead, with historical data in hand, that the ordinary of the mass of Paul VI resembles more the ordinary of the use in time of Gregory the Great than the ordinary of the mass of Pius V resembles to it.

    Although it is difficult to determine concretely what liturgical reforms Gregory the Great (590-604) have realized, we have some data on the ordinary of the mass in the VI / VII centuries. If we dwell on the heart of the mass, the so-called Eucharistic liturgy, we note that until the eighth century in the offertory of the mass we find only one prayer at the end of the rite: the super oblate prayer, later called secreted. In the Missal of Pius V, the offertory contains numerous prayers, 8 in the edition of 1962, not counting the 4 accompanying the incensation in solemn masses (take, Father; God, the nature of; OFFERING, Domine; Humbled; Come, sanctificator; Inter innocent sink; take, Trinity; Orate, brothers; Secret). The Missal of Paul VI preserves

    [N.d.R. the message came with the final sentence truncated, maybe a word is missing, we just specify that nobody cut it]

    1. it is questionable to say that the Ordinary of the Mass at the time of Gregory the Great was more similar to that of Paul VI (by law or in fact). for instance:

      – there was no Glory on Sundays, except in pontifical masses;
      – the Creed was not recited;
      – the prayer of the faithful was fairly fixed and the response was standardized, the Kyrie eleison (other than the current absurd variability!);
      – there was only one Eucharistic prayer, the Canon, with some very variable parts, like the preface (there were more than 100), the communicating and l’that is (which changed according to the festival celebrated, and not to taste), plus the memento of the dead to be included in the masses for the dead.

      The Missal of Pius V always has the Canon, but more fixed (only 11 prefaces, 6 communicating, 3 that is) but the situation is more similar to the Gregorian one than now with the 4 and more eucharistic prayers that a priest can choose practically at will plus an uncontainable and often low quality number of prefaces ;
      – for the question of fractional rites I have already written about it in a previous comment and I will not repeat it

      Peace and good

  34. Good morning Father Ariel,

    because in the world of traditionalists, the more radical ones continue to preach the dubious or certain invalidity of the new rite of S.. Paul VI (today on a catholic site i saw that a conference with the title was in progress the usual Mass is not the new Mass etc.) bearing in mind that the Church also exercises infallibility in keeping the substance of all the sacraments unchanged as in the case of liturgical reforms, it can be said that all those Catholics who think differently also sin of heresy?

    1. Dear Vincent,

      it is always a pleasure to read our comments “old people” readers who follow us from the beginning of our journey on The island of Patmos.

      The Church cannot alter the substance of the sacraments, as you remind the reader, because she is a careful custodian and faithful dispenser of the sacraments of grace, no mistress, in when, the sacraments, they are not available goods.

      The Church – and the Church alone – for the mandate given by Christ God to Peter and to the College of Apostles presided over by him, can establish new disciplines in various subjects, including the sacred liturgy. And every time the Church, through an act of magisterium, establishes that, the faithful must adhere with faith, just because they are called “faithful”, which is not by chance means: faithful to the teaching of the Church.

      Reject the teachings of the Church and the disciplines it gives in matters of doctrine and faith, moral or even sacred liturgy, may entail, according to gravity, the risk of incurring so-called “crimes” of heresy or schism.

      I am the first to say and support, with reasonable grounds and scientific evidence, that what was to be a necessary liturgical reform, animated by all the best intentions, in the post-council season it led us to many forms of arbitrary abuse which generated a real liturgical chaos, but, to remedy it, only the Church can provide. The bishops, in theology and theology, perplexities may arise, to study and to hope and plead for shelter as soon as possible, for example with a reform of the reform, but the one who has to repair is precisely the Church.

      Otherwise there is a risk that certain subjects will carve out the Church they like or the rite that most excites them. Why then, if we look, this is what it is about: of subjective emotions, not of faith.

      1. Exact!!
        If I'm wrong, correct me, but the attitude of some traditionalists, I don't want to generalize, there are many good people among those who follow the Tridentine Mass, it resembles that of Luther and the Protestants. Luther also wanted to save the Church, he wanted to reform it, he thought that the Church was completely wrong and therefore had to be corrected, to be reported on the straight road. He too was convinced that he was acting for the good of the Church, he wanted to improve it. At a certain point, he no longer recognized the authority of the Pope, he wanted to correct him too, making big mistakes and causing a schism, that we still suffer today.

        Even Luther, with different topics,he wanted to purify the Church, but in his own way and for this, he no longer recognized the authority of the Pope and the Bishops, making himself the center of it all, forgetting that the power of the keys, Christ, he gave it to Peter and his successors and that the Church is based on columns which are the apostles and their successors.

        1. All historically and doctrinally right.

          I can only add my priestly experience as a record: the ministry of confessor and spiritual director, the army mostly with priests. The penitents who use me as a confessor, they are in fact more priests than lay people.
          Once a young and splendid confrere of 32 year old, very good priest, well formed and prepared, very attentive to doctrine and sacred liturgical decoration, he told me that the bishop had appointed him pastor of a populous parish. Then he told me that on the first Sunday he was almost upset:

          1. a rambling and poorly educated assembly ;
          2. inadequate songs accompanied by badly played guitars and various tambourines ;
          3. lay people who moved on the presbytery as if it were their own space ;
          4. liturgical animators who would almost have said to the celebrant “move that you shade me” ;
          5. extraordinary ministers of Communion who demanded as a sort of acquired right to distribute the Eucharist even though they did not need the celebrant to be helped because by taking only a few more minutes he could do it ;

          etc. … etc. …

          It was the classic parish that, his two predecessors, they had entirely contracted to one of the various lay movements that had transformed it into its property, liturgy included.

          I answered the request for advice: take into account that this being the case you will have to suffer for a couple of years, maybe by getting gastritis and liver stones. Indeed, the good priest, the faithful corrects them patiently and above all by setting an example, not revolutionizing everything, was also for good, as soon as it arrives, because in that case people can get very irritated, when they believe they are doing right and need to be educated, not lined up overnight. Therefore:

          1. if you pass ten times before the tabernacle in the space of five minutes, kneel ten times, if not today tomorrow or tomorrow the other, you will see that you will reap fruit ;
          2. pretend not to hear guitars and tambourines, isolate your ears and celebrate as you know how to do the Eucharistic Sacrifice with sacred devotion, you will see that you will reap fruit ;
          3. do not take the so-called head-ons “liturgical animators” that have filled your presbytery with so-called altar girls, pretend not to see all these little girls placed to serve inappropriately around that altar that has always been a privileged place for vocations to the priesthood, but stay as close as possible to the children, because, precisely because they are children, they can perceive the dimension of the sacred in the priest, if you pass it on, you will see that you will reap fruit ;
          4. pretend not to understand that catechists are ignorant emerites unable to prepare children to receive the sacraments, but above all, leave them all in their place, avoiding unnecessary wars, but you, during the catechism lessons, show up and from time to time explain something to the children, telling the catechist that it is good that they see and listen a little’ also the Priest from whom they will receive the Sacraments, you will see that you will reap fruit ;
          5. do not take care of the over sixty year old ex-sixty-eight and ex flower children, because both are almost lost and unrecoverable, they always have Che Guevara and the song in mind God is dead Francesco Guccini, instead, it treats teenagers and young people as much as possible, because those can still be recovered, you will see that you will reap fruit ;
          6. always dress the cassock in church and in parish rooms, so that teenagers and young people understand that that black dress corresponds to the person you are and the lifestyle choice you have made, you will see that you will reap fruit ;
          7. do not go with young people to a pizzeria, or at the bar to have an aperitif, because you are their shepherd, you are sacred, you are not theirs compagnuccio Brigadier, always make him understand that you love them as children but that as a father you always wait for them at home. The good father does not go around playing with his son's friend, because it is its pillar, its source of authority and authority, you will see that you will reap fruit ;
          8. if in summer you take them to the marine colony, you do not wear a bathing suit and do not go to the bathroom with them, stay in pants and possibly not even with a shirt, but with the arms covered by a light shirt up to the wrist, so that they understand that your life also involves happy renunciations, what they will appreciate you for, you will see that you will reap the fruit ;
          9. Never allow any young person and especially no young woman, to parish collaborators, catechists or catechists, to call you by name and give you some “you”, because you deserve all the respect due to your sacred priestly dignity, which must be perceived and as such revered by the faithful, why are you a alter Christus, you will see that you will reap fruit.

          After not even two years he invited me to his parish to preach for the Easter Octave, that's all:

          – I was served at the altar by 12 altar boys who looked like toy soldiers ;
          – I came to the ambo for the proclamation of the Holy Gospel “escorted” by four altar boys, two of which held the lights, two more the thurible and the spacecraft ;
          – the smallest of all did not let me stretch my hand over the missal even once, because for the whole celebration it was he who managed the missal, turn the pages and open it at the right sign ;
          – during the Eucharistic Prayer the whole assembly was kneeling ;
          – I distributed Holy Communion escorted by four altar boys, two held the lights and two others held the plates under the chin of the faithful ;
          – was executed in Gregorian the Gloria Kyrie, the sactus, l’Agnus Dei and classical songs during the Holy Mass accompanied by the organ sound and for the singing of Communion and the final Song the organ was joined by a violin and a flute.

          So I spent a few days in that parish to hear from the parishioners how wonderful and wonderful the parish priest that the bishop had sent him and how proud and happy they were.
          Those four sixty-eight remained firm at Che Guevara and a God is dead Francesco Guccini, without anyone telling them anything they spontaneously migrated to another parish, where some seventy-year-old parish priest was their collective style catechesis Lotta Continua and during the homilies he preached against populists and ugly faces of the Right.

          Every now and then I wonder what the bishops teach their priests, increasingly similar to bureaucrats, to Catholic prefects cloaked today in sociality and pauperism. However, I don't waste time looking for an answer, because I have much better to do: I know indeed the miseries and, for this … duc in altum ! [«Take off and drop your fishing nets» (LC 5,4)]

          1. Father Ariel Caro, break through an open door,many of the things you denounced, I noticed and denounced them too, but in vain.
            After all, chaos,the anarchy that dominates in parishes is there for all to see. Everyone is responsible for this situation, Priests, movements, parishioners, without exception.

            In my experience I notice an anarchy, disorder,unbelievable. The tyranny of some parishioners is truly unbearable, they are the masters and are authentic despots, parish priests must adapt to them. But let's face it, this situation is also convenient for priests, that delegating to the laity, they can get rid of many hassles to make the good life.

            I don't blame the many people who run away from parishes, at least in my experience, I am not surprised that many stay away, I see an environment is unhealthy, full of power-hungry, venal people interested, geeks looking for their size for fear of facing life. In short, it is not a pleasant environment .

            Liturgical confusion, catechetical, pastoral, a circus a shack,that goes on, almost unconsciously. Sacraments given to the carlona to people, looking only for a reason to party. I could tell about the many idiocies,bleak behavior, that are seen in the parish masses, endless and incoclusive homilies, our father, hands in hands etc. They also agree on the songs and guitars, I do not like them, how I do not like to see constant liturgical abuse.

            There is a great ignorance,priests but also committed lay people. The fault is a little bit of everyone.

        2. Luther's problem was not that of refusing the authority of the Pope and the Bishops, like his intention to reform / purify the Church.

          He was convinced of a specific doctrine of grace, of the Redeemer Sacrifice, of the human condition after the fall etc and this had become central to him, therefore all the rest was modified according to this doctrine and the ecclesiastical authorities were maintained according to whether or not they opposed Luther
          it can also be seen from the fact that most of the Lutheran community have maintained at least a sort of episcopate, since many bishops adhered to his heresy.

          Paradoxically, if the Roman Bishop had passed to Lutheranism, the Lutherans would probably have maintained a sort of primacy of the Pope.

    1. I sincerely thank Luigi Bonini for reporting this wonderful answer to me, much more articulate than I could ever do.

      And no, Don Ariel, I'm not treating you like a liar. Just to make a diagnosis’ partial, and therefore to totally miss the 'therapy’ general. You yourself denounce an animosity towards “some” faithful who have not defended it in certain contexts that, if it is understandable, suggests that certain “objective analyzes” serve more to settle accounts with the aforementioned subjects, that to illuminate those seeking light in these dark times.

      She, instead, it seems to me that there is no problem in treating me like a liar (answer to Michele del 10 May at 19h02), for the mere fact of having defended my experience, REAL as much as his. Just as partial, of course, but deserving to be taken into consideration when displaying certain caricatures of the faithful to the public. And so I politely send back his insult.

      That said, I take what good there is to take in his reprimand, for the danger of reducing everything to ideology is certainly well present. But (I repeat myself), this risk does not exist, always, for every iota of the gospel itself?

      1. Mr. Roberto,

        he cannot deny that the traditionalist world is characterized by an antipathy towards the Second Vatican Council, of the Novus and the post-conciliar Popes. As you know, the reform of the 55 and the new calendar and often feel indecorous epithets towards the reigning Pope.
        I think this is wrong and that it should be remedied urgently through a greater formation on the texts of the Council following the example of the more conservative Council Fathers who nurtured deep obedience to the Council.
        Card Bagnasco has repeatedly reminded that Card Siri asked to read the texts of the Council on his knees, in Palermo the figure of Card Ruffini is remembered as the one who the Council applied it without problems.
        Unfortunately, traditionalism reflects the Lefebvrian rebellion and nothing else., at least not yet!
        What I don't agree with the Rev Father Ariel's thought is his solution but the diagnosis is true and denying it leads to keeping the dust under the carpet.

  35. Don Ariel,

    many of those faithful are only disoriented by readings by sedevacantist authors. Simply abolishing the Tridentine mass would mean abandoning them to sedevacantism or orthodoxy. This attitude does not seem very charitable to me. They need well-trained priests, as she.

  36. Father Ariel Caro,
    for the esteem that I bring them, I must confess that it causes me immense displeasure to find that, on the question of the Motu Proprio, you have basically the same views as those two authentic subverters that answer the name of Massimo Faggioli and Nanni Moretti…hum, pardon, Andrea Grillo.
    I usually hear the Mass in the extraordinary form at the Church of Santi Michele e Gaetano in Florence, ruled by the ICRSS, and I can assure you that I never happened to meet, among the parishioners, settari incattiviti, “ideological Christians” (as they say now) or pseudo-dandies fascinated by the majesty of the ritual.
    I have always found many beautiful families there, young devotees and elderly ladies who every Sunday lavish compliments on my beautiful two and a half year old boy, than my wife (Japanese Buddhist religion) has, his goodness, accepted without problems that I educated according to the Catholic Religion.
    Priests who officiate the sacred rites, starting with the Rector (who prepared my wife and me for the wedding), even though they are young, they have an immense cultural and theological background, combined with a great humility and availability towards others.
    It would be a pity if all this went missing.
    And someone tells him that he returned to attend church precisely because he was attracted by the example of these authentic men of God.

  37. Goodmorning everyone. As there has also been talk here (obviously) by Concilio Vaaticano II I wanted to know if anyone has read the book “Iota. Study of the variations of the Catholic Church in the twentieth century” by Romano Amerio and his impressions. to me, from a simple lay person, aroused much perplexity on the Council.

  38. I'm not a VO fanatic, but having attended the VO I have to say that there are some preferable things. The global meaning of the celebration is a convergence towards the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the NO this aspect is not evident.
    1. The SP was nefarious? The intent of the SP is not that of returning to the past, but to open the debate on the reform of the reform.
    2. If the CVII was pastoral, then why 2 dogmatic constitutions?
    3. The problem is not the conciliar documents, but the application? I have some doubts. In the SC la “table of the word” it is already equated in practice to “Eucharistic table” and this is one of the main points that creates problems for me in the NO: the fact that letters and the Eucharist are put on an equal footing. That is, it cannot be, the Eucharist must maintain the maximum level.
    5. The NO did not provoke only different masses according to the priests they celebrate, but real priests totally different from church to church. How can the concept of unity be conveyed, if even the priests are not equal from one church to another? Liturgical adjustments only convey the idea of ​​chaos.
    6. Exaggerated to say that it takes years of studies to celebrate in VO. It is not clear then why in the NO they would not be necessary. Maybe it's less important?
    7. If the meaning of the sacrifice has remained the same, why the 90% some people who attend mass believe it to be the last supper memorial?
    8. The priest celebrates in persona christi? No, he is the president of the assembly!
    9. Pietro was not acting”go”? Not…

  39. I believe there is a defect in the number of characters that can be inserted in the comment. The system allows you to insert them 1600, but then when sending, it cuts the last few letters.
    Then carry over the puno 9 of the previous comment which will probably result cut:
    9. Pietro was not acting”go”? I would not say: it is a psalm!

      1. Strange, you have problems on the site maybe. Or there was a connection problem of mine “fluctuating”. Now you have published it twice 😂😂😂

        1. Yes, until a few days ago the network was overloaded, especially in certain time slots, because most of the people locked in the house were connected to the internet, this often slowed the network down and occurred “technical errors” that had never happened before.

      2. When you can, answer me and me 9 questions? I particularly care about the point 9.
        Else… You confirm that in the Latin version of the missal of Paul VI the “I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof;” which instead in Italian was made with the horrible “participate in your canteen”? Why such an arbitrary translation?

        1. Dear Antonello,

          there is not much to say, whereas I have clarified and explained that, among the translations of the Latin text of the Missal of Saint Paul VI, that in Italian is one of the worst translations ever. About that, bringing my personal experience I also explained that, not having parish assignments and not having to celebrate for parish assemblies, I always use the Latin edition of the Missal of Paul VI, why the text, in this as in other passages, is more faithful.
          Why they made such a translation, which, moreover, is well-known and well-known which takes up the German Calvinist ritual, I honestly don't know, but this, unfortunately, is the translation, undoubtedly bad, that was made.
          All the more reason I hope that sooner or later they will get to grips with certain texts with corrective interventions, but, I repeat, they compete with the Church.

          1. Thanks Father Ariel for your kind reply. Certainly certain corrections are the responsibility of the Church. Here we do just a little’ for discussion. How can it be proposed, however, that the text be made more faithful to the original? Now, always doing pourparler, it is clear that translating into Italian with "I am not worthy that you come under my roof" does not sound very good. It could certainly be rendered with "I am not worthy that you enter my house", but a nuance of meaning would be lost which instead remains more evident in the original. The speech is a little’ long and articulated, but in summary we can say that "you do not enter under my roof / in my house" does not mean "I am not worthy to host you" as it might seem today. The reference is to the nuptial cohabitation. Jesus presents himself as the spouse of Israel and therefore of all those who welcome him. In John's gospel this is evident, in the other gospels perhaps less, but the fact that the wedding theme is scattered a little’ everywhere in the Gospels (also recalling the same image used by the prophets of God faithful husband of unfaithful Israel) I think it can lead us to think that actually, among other things, Jesus also presented himself in this way: as a groom. In the light of all this, the translation that I would feel, obviously unworthily, to propose is not so much "that you enter my house" (which is still much better than joining your canteen), but "that you enter under my tent". This would keep what was probably evident to those who listened to and uttered that sentence 2000 years ago, that is, the allusion to chuppah. What not…

          2. The final sentence of the previous message that has been cut is:
            "What do you think?»

  40. I'm not a VO fanatic, but having attended the VO I have to say that there are some preferable things. The global meaning of the celebration is a convergence towards the Eucharistic sacrifice. In the NO this aspect is not evident.
    1. The SP was nefarious? The intent of the SP is not that of returning to the past, but to open the debate on the reform of the reform.
    2. If the CVII was pastoral, then why 2 dogmatic constitutions?
    3. The problem is not the conciliar documents, but the application? I have some doubts. In the SC the "canteen of the word" is already equated in practice to the "Eucharistic table" and this is one of the main points that creates problems for me in the NO: the fact that letters and the Eucharist are put on an equal footing. That is, it cannot be, the Eucharist must maintain the maximum level.
    5. The NO did not provoke only different masses according to the priests they celebrate, but real priests totally different from church to church. How can the concept of unity be conveyed, if even the priests are not equal from one church to another? Liturgical adjustments only convey the idea of ​​chaos.
    6. Exaggerated to say that it takes years of studies to celebrate in VO. It is not clear then why in the NO they would not be necessary. Maybe it's less important?
    7. If the meaning of the sacrifice has remained the same, why the 90% some people who attend mass believe it to be the last supper memorial?
    8. The priest celebrates in persona christi? No, he is the president of the assembly!
    9. Pietro did not say "introibo"?

    1. Okay, I see that he doesn't answer me. I was interested in at least one opinion on my message related to the "ut intres sub tectum meum" because from there I would like to try to hang up on the "god who gladdens my youth" that could also, always in my humble opinion, have a nuance of nuptial meaning (I'm not going into details at the moment). In that case the two sentences would represent a very significant correlation of opening and closing of the mass, as a moment of nuptial donation of Christ (which would therefore understand the meaning of sacrifice because it is a total offering of oneself, and the banquet as not a convivial but a wedding banquet). On this aspect perhaps a true ecumenical discourse of the mass could perhaps be started. Then we would miss him, it is a half idea of ​​mine that can very well be airborne.

      1. Obviously since Jesus and the apostles mentioned the 70 (that in god who gladdens my youth translates the original differently) and that the wedding image of christ and church is typical especially of 1 century (see apocalypse) that was why I allowed myself to try to claim that introibo at altar gods… was a psalm placed there in the mass since the apostolic age. It would be interesting to understand what use of the psalm 42 it was done / was done in the liturgy in a Jewish environment. Do you have any news on this?

  41. They will be in love with a past, but there are.

    How many vocations do you have “fuck”?
    As they say in my part, it gnaws them?

    by their fruits you will get knowledge of them,

    http://blog.messainlatino.it/2019/10/il-primo-anno-2019-2020-negli-istituti.html

    http://blog.messainlatino.it/2020/04/il-primo-anno-2019-2020-negli-istituti.html

    https://lanuovabq.it/it/lanno-zero-delle-vocazioni-la-speranza-e-la-tradizione

    http://blog.messainlatino.it/2016/02/ordini-tradizionalisti-seminari-pieni.html

    Ps the rite does not go “including”

    1. … already!
      There's someone around, to those who burn and itch.
      They are clinical problems of various kinds, from the dentist to the gastroenterologist to the gynecologist.
      Every day brings its pain.

      1. I note the total lack of comments on the merits.
        In any case it is true: every day brings its pain!
        Unfortunately there are days that besides the usual punishment, they also bring an ostrich as a gift: worth your penalty, if the ostrich is in cassock.
        Because the seminars remain empty, if you don't follow the ancient rite.
        And to understand this, just knowing how to add.
        But what is mathematics in the face of ideology?
        Nothing!
        Indeed if 2+2 ago 4 and can only do 4 then it is sent to Cagnara: medical discourses of the lowest order are invented.
        Ostrich behavior, I would say.
        To each his own pain, but also to his joy.
        To those who rejoice in burying their heads, allow me to remember that the ostrich when hiding in the head, he always ends up discovering the pudenda.

        1. Lady,

          it is clear to me that you are not a Church historian, but that she claims to give to me, that the Church has lived and studied it for some decades, of these pleasant lessons in the form of questions, I just can't allow this.

          Since he loves the ancient so much, she has no idea what would have happened to her if she – however a woman – had taken the liberty of addressing a priest in these tones 60/70 years ago, of those who celebrated with the most holy missal of St. Pius V? I'll tell you how the Tridentine priest would react: or would have covered her with default or would have called her husband to have his wife take her to the woods. If therefore he wants to be old, face it all the way: so to speak tridentine women, they spoke to the priest two meters away, with bowed head and in a low voice, they kissed his hand and answered only when questioned. And’ in fact in this specific ecclesial socio context, that the most holy missal acclaimed by her is placed. So, del Trent, she can't just take the missal, must take everything, along with it.

          And’ known instead of those like her, the ancient, needless to say they only take what suits them, or what today, of the ancient never existed yesterday, they invented themselves.

          So be clear to her – and this is demonstrated by the facts and not my words – that the vocational crisis began before Vatican Council II at the time when it was celebrated with the holy missal, indeed most holy of Saint Pius V.
          In the mid-1950s, the Italian population was increasing sharply and priestly ordinations were decreasing.

          These priests in his opinion exceptionally well trained, as the most holy missal of St. Pius V was in force, I don't really know where she invented them, because in the 1950s we had a clergy that was embarrassing, for his poor training. Then there were the spearheads intended for government roles, to academic teaching roles, to the so-called ecclesiastical career and so on, but the bulk of our clergy was made up of poorly trained priests.
          Perhaps he wants proof of it that cannot be denied? Well read the encyclical written in 1935 by Pope Pius XI, THE CATHOLIC PRIESTHOOD

          http://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/it/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19351220_ad-catholici-sacerdotii.html

          to understand at what low levels our clergy was reduced, while being able to benefit from the holy missal, indeed most holy of Saint Pius V.

          When between the late sixties and early seventies we witnessed a real escape from the priesthood, with thousands upon thousands of requests for dispensation and dismissal from the clerical state, with some Italian dioceses in which the abandonments came to touch even the tip of the 50% in some presbyters … Well, know that all those priests who fled to the first “sun of freedom” or “sexual revolution”, they had all been formed in the old seminaries and had celebrated Mass for years with the most holy missal of Saint Pius V.

          Don't you dare say, please … “of course, there was the notorious Council, here is the reason for abandonments”. Because I would reply that a priest does not abandon, for so little, your holy bride, to run after the first female who showed him a miniskirt and hear a Beatles song, just to be clear.

          So you speak of a Church that never existed, as I explain in my video about those who, failing to face the present, they throw themselves into a past that never existed and which they build for their own use and consumption, in order not to deal with reality.

          And please: if you want to make a serious speech, don't mention me, as a source, he blog Messainlatino, as it did in the previous message, because to me he must mention the Holy Fathers of the Church, the great theologians and the acts of the perennial Magisterium, because I'm a serious priest, not a priest from “hysterical gossip” in the name of “lace and lace” style Messainlatino, behind which they are hidden, moreover, quite a few boys with disturbing testosterone deficiency, as often happens in all environments fascinated by the Baroque.

          1. la situazione da lei descritta per la Chiesa pre-concilio è vera, unfortunately, e il Concilio è stato (si può discutere se volontariamente o involontariamente) la scintilla che ha fatto esplodere tutti i problemi legati alla scarsa formazione teologica ed umana di laici e sacerdoti, sottaciuti e repressi dall’autorità forte dei Papi, che con il Concilio è saltata

            però non addossiamo la colpa di tutto ciò al Messale pre-conciliare, unfortunately, a causa dell’ignoranza, era considerato (a parte la Consacrazione) solo come un insieme di preghiere da dire perchè erano scritte nei libri, e che non venivano più capite e da cui non si cercava di trarre frutto per la propria vita di fede

          2. What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if it didn't start with a vain notch wheel… ops ostrich.
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if he didn't neglect Matteo, 11 25-26.
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if it were not addressed to those who have been in the Church since she was baptized, that is, from the day of birth.
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if it were not addressed to those who pride themselves on being the living stone of this Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if it were nothing more than a petty new attempt to make a fool, in order not to deal with the sources indicated by me and with the numbers reported.
            What a learned answer!
            It can be commended, for giving up an irony, indeed from constipated results.
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if he hadn't replaced irony with an ad personam attack that I refuse to consider petty, it is so childish.
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if he did not childishly accuse passatism of those born in the year of the three Popes, on Ascension Day.
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if he did not accuse childishly of passatism who has NEVER made comparisons with the past and simply confined himself to L’ TODAY,
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if he did not accuse childishly of passatism those who merely find out what the crowded churches and seminars are today.
            What a learned answer!
            One could praise it, if he hadn't mentioned the holy memory, Pius XII. For about ten months, over…

          3. Lady,

            she has a husband?
            Because a man forced to endure an arrogant woman, irreverent, quarrelsome and quarrelsome like her, he should be proclaimed a holy martyr directly in life.
            Thank you for making me appreciate celibacy and chastity more than ever.

  42. I launch a public appeal to Father Ariel: please answer me! Offend me, give me a fool, do her, but please answer, also publicly, to the email I sent you about the Tridentine Mass and the post-conciliar Church! I am committed, sin da ora, not to enter into controversy with her. But let me know how you think, even if he thinks I'm unintelligent.

    1. Dear William.

      thanks for the message, because in this way it gives me the opportunity to clarify myself.
      I always reply to emails privately, If anything, Sometimes, I take several days before doing it, but I always do.
      The problem is that I haven't received your email, I looked even if by chance it ended up in the antispam.
      Be kind enough to send it back to me.
      Thank you.

      isoladipatmos@gmail.com

  43. Padre la ringrazio per questo video e per la sua esposizione chiara e puntuale. Ascoltandola mi è sorta più di una domanda: per quale motivo si è scelto un linguaggio “romantico” in vece di un linguaggio dogmatico? Possibile che nessuno si sia interrogato circa la possibilità che un tal modo di esprimersi avrebbe potuto aprire la strada (o meglio le strade) alle più svariate interpretazioni? Se il compito della Chiesa di Cristo è quello di menare il gregge di Dio per la via diritta perchè si è scelta una scrittura che invece di dare certezze ha aperto ad una selva di incertezze? Non ho ancora letto i documenti del concilio ammetto, soprattutto per il loro numero e per la loro mole, ma ho avuto modo di leggere il libro-intervista “Rapporto sulla Fede” di Vittorio Messori, dove l’allora cardinale Ratzinger prese la posizione che è anche la sua: il concilio è in linea con la Tradizione, a non esserlo sono state alcune sue interpretazioni. Attualmente per questioni di praticità e per il grande rispetto che nutro per Benedetto XVI, come uomo di cultura e di lettere (but not only), prendo per buone queste considerazioni e mi limito a chiedere ai detrattori del concilio spiegazioni circa le loro opinioni MASe anche all’interno dei documenti del concilio non si palesassero errori dottrinali, heresies, apostasy (come invece alcuni sostengono), questo linguaggio “liberty” CUI PRODEST? Sentire le sue parole sul Vaticano II mi ha riportato al clima di sospensione ed incertezza che mi ha avvolto mentre leggevo il capitolo I di Amoris Laetitia, quando pensai esattamente le stesse cose

  44. Sarò breve anche se è difficile esprimere un pensiero razionale ed emotivo che si oppone alla Sua tesi.
    Nel caso della S. Messa tridentina le persone con una certa sensibilità percepiscono la forma e la sostanza in intimità tale da dare loro una valenza spazio temporale unica.
    Motu proprio come paradigma della psicologia di Benedetto XVI ? Questa è una presa in giro di chi si atteggia a psicologo, ma è ingiusta.
    Piuttosto ho perception un’ira soffocata in tutte le Sue forbite,
    ineccepibili , colte , parole di super teologo.
    Il Motu proprio non è una specie di grimaldello per incrinare ancor di più la crisi delle Chiesa ( anche se per qualcuno può diventare un modo di opporsi alla nuova Messa), ma un aiuto a sentirsi vivo in una Chiesa viva, la stessa che vive da secoli e in ogni angolo del mondo può ritrovare le stesse eterne Parole legate indissolubilmente alla Sostanza che è Cristo stesso .
    I do not want, ma credo che il Suo modo di pensare sia formalmente ben confezionato, ma manchi di cuore.

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